3 ms·

My sincere hope is that that would happen. Especially in medium and high income jobs in mass scale. Working for living is a problem to be solved. The purpose

by nabla9 3y ago

My sincere hope is that that would happen. Especially in medium and high income jobs in mass scale. Working for living is a problem to be solved. The purpose of technology is to automate things, increase free time. The purpose of politics is to distribute gains justly, whatever that is.

swid 3y ago
Good luck distributing gains justly when the masses have nothing of value to bargain with. Politics will likely continue to be co-opted by people who can pay; either directly or through other means of coercion. There used to be a lot more horses… I’m finding 25 million in the US in 1920 compared with 3.8 million today. Of course, they can no longer occupy the niche in society they used to, and so like in nature; when the niche is removed; they can’t just find some other way to be productive or even survive. I don’t think we are so different. Based on the past, I think it’s dangerous to believe some few will keep the rest of us around. Dangerous, because unlike horses, this will cause significant unrest, and ultimately we can’t predict the outcome. My guess is ultimately, with fewer jobs, there will eventually be less people, for better or worse.
- randysalami 3y ago
  Yes, if some kings didn’t need the labor of their serfs, they would be gone in an instant. Middle class workers only have it so good now because the ruling class is strictly dependent on them for their empires. Once that goes out the window, we won’t be kept around in our positions of privilege since our labor has no value. I imagine it looks like a transition of the middle class to the lower class (with some going to a higher class with specialized technology roles as class traitors), and then the lower class, having had their labor invalidated, being put on UBI and being sucked like cattle by corporations, eroding their rights and sovereignty. With social media addiction, rampant disinformation, newer generations won’t even have the faculties to conceptualize their fate and resist. I also don’t think unrest could ever reach a boiling point in the US with how addicted, misinformed, and manipulated most of the population is. Eventually, we see a complete unification of the wealthy with the state and we transition back into serfdom. People trapped in debt, dependent on the state for sustenance, except this time the state has no dependence on their labor. What happens next is your choice of dystopian horror fiction.
subjectsigma 3y ago
> Working for living is a problem to be solved. I strongly, viscerally disagree with this. People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also like they are contributing to something larger than themselves. I’ve seen friends struggle to get a job and find their place in the world; sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist, and that’s where a lot of people will end up without work, as the average person seems to be pretty terrible at stimulating themselves intellectually. Note that this doesn’t strictly require capitalism or a 40 hour workweek or anything like that. Since AI is so great at solving everything, maybe one day it can organize the distribution of work to keep the remaining humans busy. I don’t know.
- serf 3y ago
  a person can be made to feel capable without requiring a living wage. similarly : work exists outside of wages, as do co-operative and unpaid grand works. the (probably fantastical) hope is that when a 'living wage' as a concept disappears it will free up people to pursue things that they're actually passionate about to form an identity and purpose. put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology rather than something that we need to feed employment into. the human condition has lasted a lot longer than our current hyper-capitalism-centric ethos about work and passion; if people are becoming worse for it we should probably change the habits and motivations rather than providing their pacifier and acting as if it's a normal human thing for a psyche to dissolve when allowed to act as a free agent.
  - subjectsigma 3y ago
    > put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? That’s like asking me if I think it’s ‘great’ that people have two legs and a finite lifespan. It just is. What you choose to do under constraints is a big part of your identity. > it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology Man, is there anything that isn’t a pathology these days?
- 3y ago
constantcrying 3y ago
>Working for living is a problem to be solved. I had a job where I got payed, but had no real work. It was genuinely awful.
- Teever 3y ago
  Why was it awful? That would be my dream. The first thing I would do is enrol in online courses/ get a second job.
  - constantcrying 3y ago
    It is illegal for me to get a second job. You can not do meaningful learning for that many hours. I was doing it in my free time anyway, that was enough for me. Not to cry about my mental health, but it was very taxing for me. I was just sitting around doing random things occasionally.
  - postalrat 3y ago
    Free money is the dream or not working is dream?

by nabla9 3y ago

swid 3y ago

Good luck distributing gains justly when the masses have nothing of value to bargain with. Politics will likely continue to be co-opted by people who can pay; either directly or through other means of coercion. There used to be a lot more horses… I’m finding 25 million in the US in 1920 compared with 3.8 million today. Of course, they can no longer occupy the niche in society they used to, and so like in nature; when the niche is removed; they can’t just find some other way to be productive or even survive. I don’t think we are so different. Based on the past, I think it’s dangerous to believe some few will keep the rest of us around. Dangerous, because unlike horses, this will cause significant unrest, and ultimately we can’t predict the outcome. My guess is ultimately, with fewer jobs, there will eventually be less people, for better or worse.

randysalami 3y ago
Yes, if some kings didn’t need the labor of their serfs, they would be gone in an instant. Middle class workers only have it so good now because the ruling class is strictly dependent on them for their empires. Once that goes out the window, we won’t be kept around in our positions of privilege since our labor has no value. I imagine it looks like a transition of the middle class to the lower class (with some going to a higher class with specialized technology roles as class traitors), and then the lower class, having had their labor invalidated, being put on UBI and being sucked like cattle by corporations, eroding their rights and sovereignty. With social media addiction, rampant disinformation, newer generations won’t even have the faculties to conceptualize their fate and resist. I also don’t think unrest could ever reach a boiling point in the US with how addicted, misinformed, and manipulated most of the population is. Eventually, we see a complete unification of the wealthy with the state and we transition back into serfdom. People trapped in debt, dependent on the state for sustenance, except this time the state has no dependence on their labor. What happens next is your choice of dystopian horror fiction.

subjectsigma 3y ago

> Working for living is a problem to be solved. I strongly, viscerally disagree with this. People (mostly) need to feel like they are capable agents and also like they are contributing to something larger than themselves. I’ve seen friends struggle to get a job and find their place in the world; sitting alone at home and watching TV for weeks straight is an inhuman way to exist, and that’s where a lot of people will end up without work, as the average person seems to be pretty terrible at stimulating themselves intellectually. Note that this doesn’t strictly require capitalism or a 40 hour workweek or anything like that. Since AI is so great at solving everything, maybe one day it can organize the distribution of work to keep the remaining humans busy. I don’t know.

serf 3y ago
a person can be made to feel capable without requiring a living wage. similarly : work exists outside of wages, as do co-operative and unpaid grand works. the (probably fantastical) hope is that when a 'living wage' as a concept disappears it will free up people to pursue things that they're actually passionate about to form an identity and purpose. put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology rather than something that we need to feed employment into. the human condition has lasted a lot longer than our current hyper-capitalism-centric ethos about work and passion; if people are becoming worse for it we should probably change the habits and motivations rather than providing their pacifier and acting as if it's a normal human thing for a psyche to dissolve when allowed to act as a free agent.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  > put from another angle : do you think it's great that people can't find identity without employment? That’s like asking me if I think it’s ‘great’ that people have two legs and a finite lifespan. It just is. What you choose to do under constraints is a big part of your identity. > it seems to me we should treat 'lack of identity and self worth due to lack of employment' as a pathology Man, is there anything that isn’t a pathology these days?
3y ago

constantcrying 3y ago

>Working for living is a problem to be solved. I had a job where I got payed, but had no real work. It was genuinely awful.

Teever 3y ago
Why was it awful? That would be my dream. The first thing I would do is enrol in online courses/ get a second job.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  It is illegal for me to get a second job. You can not do meaningful learning for that many hours. I was doing it in my free time anyway, that was enough for me. Not to cry about my mental health, but it was very taxing for me. I was just sitting around doing random things occasionally.
- postalrat 3y ago
  Free money is the dream or not working is dream?