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>> I have yet to see a serious programming shop that would bet its billion dollar business on frameworks built by others. Even the majority of PHP development

by ralfn 14y ago

>> I have yet to see a serious programming shop that would bet its billion dollar business on frameworks built by others. Even the majority of PHP development uses frameworks these days. You didnt answer the questions at all. Nor did you provide any of your qualifications with actual arguments. And you dont "experience raw power" of a language, instead one can actually meaure it and formally classify it. Here is a question for you to put things in perpective. Whats the order of complexity of adding an element in the middle of "an array" in PHP? I think you are confusing "raw power" with the sound an idiot makes, when they write bad algorithms, in languages with questionable language design.

kamaal 14y ago
>>I think you are confusing "raw power" with the sound an idiot makes No replies to ad hominem attacks. >>when they write bad algorithms, in languages with questionable language design. From when was that any criteria for success? Worse is better won a long back. Fighting that has proven to be futile.
- ralfn 14y ago
  >No replies to ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry, you are right. That was uncalled for. >From when was that any criteria for success? Worse is better won a long back. Fighting that has proven to be futile. No, it hasn't. Pragmatism won over theoretical grounds. And there are very many pragmatic reasons to prefer PHP for certain projects. No one is arguing against that. But, with legacy and a changing market, some of those pragmatic choices come back to bite you. There are many ways to combat this. One can evolve the language, for example. This has worked better for some languages (Javascript comes to mind) that share some of design flaws in PHP, than it has for PHP itself. What I am arguing about, is that, we as an industry, as a community, as a profession, we shouldn't be aiming for a future where PHP is still dominant, any more than we should be aiming for a future where horses are our dominant means of transportation. Now, maybe we can shoehorn modern features into PHP. It has been tried with PHP4 and PHP5. But for what reason? There isn't any decent implementation of PHP (performance and stability wise). Other syntaxes aren't that hard to get accustomed to. The algorithmic complexity of core operations has changed between versions. It's not like there is any important code written in PHP, that must survive some transition, like there is with C. Is it just to keep those on board, with no academic training, who only know PHP? If they were capable of learning PHP by themselves, would other languages really be that hard for them to use (or abuse)?

by ralfn 14y ago

kamaal 14y ago

>>I think you are confusing "raw power" with the sound an idiot makes No replies to ad hominem attacks. >>when they write bad algorithms, in languages with questionable language design. From when was that any criteria for success? Worse is better won a long back. Fighting that has proven to be futile.

ralfn 14y ago
>No replies to ad hominem attacks. I'm sorry, you are right. That was uncalled for. >From when was that any criteria for success? Worse is better won a long back. Fighting that has proven to be futile. No, it hasn't. Pragmatism won over theoretical grounds. And there are very many pragmatic reasons to prefer PHP for certain projects. No one is arguing against that. But, with legacy and a changing market, some of those pragmatic choices come back to bite you. There are many ways to combat this. One can evolve the language, for example. This has worked better for some languages (Javascript comes to mind) that share some of design flaws in PHP, than it has for PHP itself. What I am arguing about, is that, we as an industry, as a community, as a profession, we shouldn't be aiming for a future where PHP is still dominant, any more than we should be aiming for a future where horses are our dominant means of transportation. Now, maybe we can shoehorn modern features into PHP. It has been tried with PHP4 and PHP5. But for what reason? There isn't any decent implementation of PHP (performance and stability wise). Other syntaxes aren't that hard to get accustomed to. The algorithmic complexity of core operations has changed between versions. It's not like there is any important code written in PHP, that must survive some transition, like there is with C. Is it just to keep those on board, with no academic training, who only know PHP? If they were capable of learning PHP by themselves, would other languages really be that hard for them to use (or abuse)?