4 ms·

Consider how many man years it takes to build a house. It might take 20 people a full time year to build your house (including all the time spent creating the m

Consider how many man years it takes to build a house. It might take 20 people a full time year to build your house (including all the time spent creating the materials). If we lived in a truely equal society where everyone was paid the same amount, you should therefore expect it to take 20 full time years of your life to pay for it.

leobg 3y ago
That’s what I was thinking, too: How long would it take a layman to build his own house, say from bricks. 1 year full time? Probably more. 10? Probably less. So now, if it’s done not buy a layperson but by someone specialized with big machinery and procurement channels set up, it should be much faster. Say, half a year. So why should I pay more than 2x that? (It’s a bit like with bread these days. If I can make a Tartine league bread for $5 in my goddamn home oven, including electricity, then why should I pay $8 for a bread that is much worse at a bakery outlet that sells stuff made at economies of scale? That’s not capitalism. It’s banking on people not being able anymore to value. It’s treating buyers not as competent individuals, but as dumb herd driven consumers. That approach is clearly working. But I’m attracted to those pockets and niches where it’s not true. Like HN.)
- concordDance 3y ago
  Just brick laying wouldn't take even close to a year. The 10,000 bricks to lay would take around 200 hours at a minute per brick (which seems a lot slower than I remember being in my youth[1]). Most of the man hours are not in the crude house frame, but in everything else, particularly finishings. Also, the transactions costs for a large number of specialists are considerable. [1] and indeed, looks like a careful bricklayer will be doing 4 a minute or so: https://youtu.be/jDgEqhz94-Y?si=oKxmQ-QAXEDC13h4 https://youtu.be/jDgEqhz94-Y?si=oKxmQ-QAXEDC13h4
- emporas 3y ago
  Speaking of personal experience: 3 people working most of the time part-time (half the day), it took almost 7 years to build a 3 floor building. It was me: 8 to 15 years old, my brother 5 to 13 years old, and my father. It includes almost all of the hard costs the article mentions except the foundation, brick laying, electrical, plumbing, windows, more concrete around the house, garage, and a myriad other things. Sometimes we hired 1 or 2 people, once a month or something. If all people were like my father, mathematician, polymath, expert in everything electrical, wood and metal constructions, with connections to many other engineers who regularly ask for advice, then the estimated total cost of building a 3 floor house is around 100.000 euros. That's the cost of materials, but probably less than that, 80.000 or something. The estimated time for 3 adults (not children - teenagers), to build a 120 m^2 per floor building, all 3 floors, is 3-4 years. Anyway, i think housing-transportation and many other things, will become free, once we move to carbon based buildings, vehicles and so on (see graphene). It is only carbon that offers us, strength of materials, flexibility, lightweight-ness, variety of materials so as to have everything in abundance. Abundance, like, personal skyscrapers, that kind of abundance.
- p3rls 3y ago
  How much for a layman to dig his own sewer connection? How much for a layman to run out his gas connection? How much for a layman to install a modern breaker? How much for a layman to know what code to even follow? Reasoning from first principles is great but building a modern code-compliant house isn't going to be possible for a layperson without guidance every step of the way. Move fast and break stuff isn't going to fly in real construction.
- pandaman 3y ago
  Half a year to build a house for one person? If you can do this then definitely no need to hire builders, builders themselves cannot do the work nearly this fast.
concordDance 3y ago
It'll only take 20 manyears if you own a mansion, the average US house in 1990 cost $200k inflation adjusted dollars and that includes land cost.
- wwweston 3y ago
  Median household income in 1990 was probably in the 25k range, mortgaged that’d be a 10-20 year payoff, so not too far off.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    I said inflation adjusted. Median inflation adjusted income in 1990 USA was around $60k.
fragmede 3y ago
that's also for a custom boutique constructed house. iF we used efficiency of scale and mass maufacturing techniques, that would get driven down.

leobg 3y ago

That’s what I was thinking, too: How long would it take a layman to build his own house, say from bricks. 1 year full time? Probably more. 10? Probably less. So now, if it’s done not buy a layperson but by someone specialized with big machinery and procurement channels set up, it should be much faster. Say, half a year. So why should I pay more than 2x that? (It’s a bit like with bread these days. If I can make a Tartine league bread for $5 in my goddamn home oven, including electricity, then why should I pay $8 for a bread that is much worse at a bakery outlet that sells stuff made at economies of scale? That’s not capitalism. It’s banking on people not being able anymore to value. It’s treating buyers not as competent individuals, but as dumb herd driven consumers. That approach is clearly working. But I’m attracted to those pockets and niches where it’s not true. Like HN.)

concordDance 3y ago
Just brick laying wouldn't take even close to a year. The 10,000 bricks to lay would take around 200 hours at a minute per brick (which seems a lot slower than I remember being in my youth[1]). Most of the man hours are not in the crude house frame, but in everything else, particularly finishings. Also, the transactions costs for a large number of specialists are considerable. [1] and indeed, looks like a careful bricklayer will be doing 4 a minute or so: https://youtu.be/jDgEqhz94-Y?si=oKxmQ-QAXEDC13h4 https://youtu.be/jDgEqhz94-Y?si=oKxmQ-QAXEDC13h4
emporas 3y ago
Speaking of personal experience: 3 people working most of the time part-time (half the day), it took almost 7 years to build a 3 floor building. It was me: 8 to 15 years old, my brother 5 to 13 years old, and my father. It includes almost all of the hard costs the article mentions except the foundation, brick laying, electrical, plumbing, windows, more concrete around the house, garage, and a myriad other things. Sometimes we hired 1 or 2 people, once a month or something. If all people were like my father, mathematician, polymath, expert in everything electrical, wood and metal constructions, with connections to many other engineers who regularly ask for advice, then the estimated total cost of building a 3 floor house is around 100.000 euros. That's the cost of materials, but probably less than that, 80.000 or something. The estimated time for 3 adults (not children - teenagers), to build a 120 m^2 per floor building, all 3 floors, is 3-4 years. Anyway, i think housing-transportation and many other things, will become free, once we move to carbon based buildings, vehicles and so on (see graphene). It is only carbon that offers us, strength of materials, flexibility, lightweight-ness, variety of materials so as to have everything in abundance. Abundance, like, personal skyscrapers, that kind of abundance.
p3rls 3y ago
How much for a layman to dig his own sewer connection? How much for a layman to run out his gas connection? How much for a layman to install a modern breaker? How much for a layman to know what code to even follow? Reasoning from first principles is great but building a modern code-compliant house isn't going to be possible for a layperson without guidance every step of the way. Move fast and break stuff isn't going to fly in real construction.
pandaman 3y ago
Half a year to build a house for one person? If you can do this then definitely no need to hire builders, builders themselves cannot do the work nearly this fast.

concordDance 3y ago

It'll only take 20 manyears if you own a mansion, the average US house in 1990 cost $200k inflation adjusted dollars and that includes land cost.

wwweston 3y ago
Median household income in 1990 was probably in the 25k range, mortgaged that’d be a 10-20 year payoff, so not too far off.
- concordDance 3y ago
  I said inflation adjusted. Median inflation adjusted income in 1990 USA was around $60k.

fragmede 3y ago

that's also for a custom boutique constructed house. iF we used efficiency of scale and mass maufacturing techniques, that would get driven down.