3 ms·

Fluoride is a chronic toxin so the dose is the accumulated exposure.

woodruffw 3y ago
I don’t think fluoride is considered a ”chronic” toxin at the levels found in municipal US water supplies. As noted elsewhere, these levels are pretty close to (and sometimes significantly below) natural fluoride groundwater levels elsewhere in the world. (Saying that fluoride accumulates profoundly misses the point: it is supposed to accumulate. What fluoride doesn’t do is accumulate in soft tissues, which is why acute exposures to high doses of fluoride don’t guarantee intellectual forestallment like lead frequently does.)
- thsksbd 3y ago
  First of all just because a water source is natural doesn't make it safe. Sea water, sulfonate rich springs, etc are bad for drinking. That there are places around the world that have high with F doesn't make it safe. There are places in the world that had catastrophically high rates of cretinism. Turns out it was a natural factor in an otherwise idyllic natural setting. I am aware that fluorine is supposed to accumulate in your teeth and doesnt in "soft" tissue; but it also accumulates in your bones and anywhere there is calcium. Bones and teeth are not dead scaffolding, but an integral part of your body's biochemical system. I should know - they gnawed a hole into my hip to get at my marrow.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    I’m not talking about mineral springs, or chugging a glass of seawater. I’m talking about the groundwater for much of continental Europe. Again: it’s supposed to bioaccumulate there. Bioaccumulation is a part of homeostasis; the fact that iron (calcium, etc.) bioaccumulates is neither a reason to avoid it nor to exceed a healthy dietary quantity. And the evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of municipal fluoride levels being both safe and sufficient for dental health.
xk_id 3y ago
There is far more fluoride in a cup of green tea and nobody ever panicked about that.
- tomhoward 3y ago
  People aren’t recommended to drink 8 glasses or more of green tea per day and most people don’t have any. The whole thing with fluoridated water is that whilst small doses may be harmless for most people, the more you consume the worse it is, and plenty of people - based on official recommendations - drink a lot of tap water each day.
  - xk_id 3y ago
    Except if you drink the daily recommended amount of water, you don't come anywhere close to the fluoride in 1 cup of green tea. It's just a completely delusional panic.
    - tomhoward 3y ago
      Can you share your sources on this? What figures can you point to on mg/L of fluoride in (commonly consumed) green tea vs tap water? Even aside from that, it’s a specious argument: people who want to avoid fluoride can just avoid green tea; it’s much harder to avoid it in tap water. As for “delusional panic”: it matters a lot for iodine absorption and thyroid function for some people, which is a both widespread and overlooked/diminished, at great harm and cost to those who are affected and unable to get help. For what it’s worth I’m not advocating for removal of fluoride from tap water, but there does need to be more recognition of the harms to those affected and serious efforts made to develop treatment approaches for those with iodine deficiencies and thyroid dysfunction, as it really is a catastrophic problem for a lot of people.
      - woodruffw 3y ago
        > What figures can you point to on mg/L of fluoride in (commonly consumed) green tea vs tap water? Municipal tap water in the US is fluoridated between 0.7mg/L and 1.2mg/L, per the CDC's 1962 guidelines[1]. To my knowledge, most municipalities choose the lower end of that range (since the effects are diminishing and, well, it's cheaper). By contrast, at least one survey of black tea infusions finds an average of 2.65mg/L[2]. So over twice the CDC's highest baseline for municipal fluoridation. (Note: at that average for black tea, an adult would still need to drink ~4L of black tea a day to pass the CDC's tolerable upper limit. People grossly overestimate both how much fluoride is dangerous, and how much they actually consume.) [1]: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/5160 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/5160 [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9672222/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9672222/

I don’t think fluoride is considered a ”chronic” toxin at the levels found in municipal US water supplies. As noted elsewhere, these levels are pretty close to (and sometimes significantly below) natural fluoride groundwater levels elsewhere in the world. (Saying that fluoride accumulates profoundly misses the point: it is supposed to accumulate. What fluoride doesn’t do is accumulate in soft tissues, which is why acute exposures to high doses of fluoride don’t guarantee intellectual forestallment like lead frequently does.)

thsksbd 3y ago
First of all just because a water source is natural doesn't make it safe. Sea water, sulfonate rich springs, etc are bad for drinking. That there are places around the world that have high with F doesn't make it safe. There are places in the world that had catastrophically high rates of cretinism. Turns out it was a natural factor in an otherwise idyllic natural setting. I am aware that fluorine is supposed to accumulate in your teeth and doesnt in "soft" tissue; but it also accumulates in your bones and anywhere there is calcium. Bones and teeth are not dead scaffolding, but an integral part of your body's biochemical system. I should know - they gnawed a hole into my hip to get at my marrow.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  I’m not talking about mineral springs, or chugging a glass of seawater. I’m talking about the groundwater for much of continental Europe. Again: it’s supposed to bioaccumulate there. Bioaccumulation is a part of homeostasis; the fact that iron (calcium, etc.) bioaccumulates is neither a reason to avoid it nor to exceed a healthy dietary quantity. And the evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of municipal fluoride levels being both safe and sufficient for dental health.

xk_id 3y ago

There is far more fluoride in a cup of green tea and nobody ever panicked about that.

tomhoward 3y ago
People aren’t recommended to drink 8 glasses or more of green tea per day and most people don’t have any. The whole thing with fluoridated water is that whilst small doses may be harmless for most people, the more you consume the worse it is, and plenty of people - based on official recommendations - drink a lot of tap water each day.
- xk_id 3y ago
  Except if you drink the daily recommended amount of water, you don't come anywhere close to the fluoride in 1 cup of green tea. It's just a completely delusional panic.
  - tomhoward 3y ago
    Can you share your sources on this? What figures can you point to on mg/L of fluoride in (commonly consumed) green tea vs tap water? Even aside from that, it’s a specious argument: people who want to avoid fluoride can just avoid green tea; it’s much harder to avoid it in tap water. As for “delusional panic”: it matters a lot for iodine absorption and thyroid function for some people, which is a both widespread and overlooked/diminished, at great harm and cost to those who are affected and unable to get help. For what it’s worth I’m not advocating for removal of fluoride from tap water, but there does need to be more recognition of the harms to those affected and serious efforts made to develop treatment approaches for those with iodine deficiencies and thyroid dysfunction, as it really is a catastrophic problem for a lot of people.
    - woodruffw 3y ago
      > What figures can you point to on mg/L of fluoride in (commonly consumed) green tea vs tap water? Municipal tap water in the US is fluoridated between 0.7mg/L and 1.2mg/L, per the CDC's 1962 guidelines[1]. To my knowledge, most municipalities choose the lower end of that range (since the effects are diminishing and, well, it's cheaper). By contrast, at least one survey of black tea infusions finds an average of 2.65mg/L[2]. So over twice the CDC's highest baseline for municipal fluoridation. (Note: at that average for black tea, an adult would still need to drink ~4L of black tea a day to pass the CDC's tolerable upper limit. People grossly overestimate both how much fluoride is dangerous, and how much they actually consume.) [1]: https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/5160 https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/5160 [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9672222/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9672222/