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A town employee lowered the fluoride in water for years (2022)
- MichaelMug 3y ago> its addition to municipal water can amount to an unwanted medication Very interesting way of thinking about that. I understand the benefits of fluoride but I also understand this sentiment.
- sanex 3y agoYeah I mean what's the problem with just swishing some fluoride every once in a while. They used to bring it to us in school and ironically told us NOT to swallow it.
- tekla 3y agoDosages are a thing.
- woodruffw 3y agoThe problem is that a lot of people (a truly shocking number) won’t do that, and can’t be forced to (nobody wants the Toothpaste Gestapo). Without public health programs for things like fluoridation or vaccination, small slices of the population become disproportionate sinks of public health resources. (You were told not to swallow the fluoride in school because it’s significantly more concentrated than contents in the water supply. The dose makes the medicine and the poison.)
- thsksbd 3y agoFluoride is a chronic toxin so the dose is the accumulated exposure.
- woodruffw 3y agoI don’t think fluoride is considered a ”chronic” toxin at the levels found in municipal US water supplies. As noted elsewhere, these levels are pretty close to (and sometimes significantly below) natural fluoride groundwater levels elsewhere in the world. (Saying that fluoride accumulates profoundly misses the point: it is supposed to accumulate. What fluoride doesn’t do is accumulate in soft tissues, which is why acute exposures to high doses of fluoride don’t guarantee intellectual forestallment like lead frequently does.)
- thsksbd 3y agoFirst of all just because a water source is natural doesn't make it safe. Sea water, sulfonate rich springs, etc are bad for drinking. That there are places around the world that have high with F doesn't make it safe. There are places in the world that had catastrophically high rates of cretinism. Turns out it was a natural factor in an otherwise idyllic natural setting. I am aware that fluorine is supposed to accumulate in your teeth and doesnt in "soft" tissue; but it also accumulates in your bones and anywhere there is calcium. Bones and teeth are not dead scaffolding, but an integral part of your body's biochemical system. I should know - they gnawed a hole into my hip to get at my marrow.
- woodruffw 3y agoI’m not talking about mineral springs, or chugging a glass of seawater. I’m talking about the groundwater for much of continental Europe. Again: it’s supposed to bioaccumulate there. Bioaccumulation is a part of homeostasis; the fact that iron (calcium, etc.) bioaccumulates is neither a reason to avoid it nor to exceed a healthy dietary quantity. And the evidence is overwhelmingly supportive of municipal fluoride levels being both safe and sufficient for dental health.
- bawolff 3y agoThat would apply to any fortified food. The iodine in your salt, the vitamin D in your milk, etc.
- thsksbd 3y agoI can buy non-iodized salt (in fact its hard not to at WF), and non-fortified milk or bread very easily. At an insignificant price difference. It is impossible to buy non-fluorinated drinking water that is not orders of magnitude more expensive than tap. Then again, I don't consider tap water to be potable in the US so I guess its a wash.
- weinberg 3y agoWF meaning…Whole Foods?
- thsksbd 3y agoYeah. Its basically my corner store. It was frustratingly annoying to buy iodized salt for my pregnant wife there.
- DEADMINCE 3y ago> I don't consider tap water to be potable in the US That's a weird sentiment considering the US has some of the highest quality drinking water in the world.
- Anonbrit 3y agoUnless you live in Flint...
- thsksbd 3y agoScientists who work in government (DOE, EPA, etc) keep telling me that but I don't believe them. I worked alongside them and I wasn't impressed by most of them. Result? I dodged a mini-Flint that occurred in my tiny corner of the Midwest. Two if you include the aftermath of Bethlehem, OH. Anyway "rest of the world" is a spurious comparison. Im interested in comparing with Switzerland's water quality, not Eritrea's .
- SilasX 3y agoYes. Imagine if they put lithium in the water based on the evidence that microdosing it calms the population and reduces violence and overall mental health issues. That atomic number is a lot more controversial!
- woodruffw 3y agoIt should not be especially astonishing that public health programs for dental health and public immunity are substantially less controversial than putting a mood stabilizer in the water would be. Why conflate these as if one implies the other?
- ryandrake 3y agoActually, it doesn’t sound like a bad idea, IF it could be shown to 1. be effective and 2. cost the public less than the aggregate sum of individual mental health mitigations. A more mentally healthy, less violent, less aggressive, less belligerent society sounds great to me.
- rokkitmensch 3y agoBring on the Soma, Dr. Orwell!
- voisin 3y agoDr Huxley! (Soma was Brave New World.)
- rokkitmensch 3y agoahhh I get my visionaries mixed up and fail to double check my citations!
- salawat 3y agoSomeone didn't pay attention to what happened to Miranda in Firefly. Furthermore, as others mentioned, Huxley would like a word.
- jt2190 3y ago(2022)
- morpheos137 3y agoSo it is irrelevant?
- dang 3y agoOn HN, it's the convention to put the year in the title when the article is older than a year or so. Readers often helpfully mention the year in such cases. It doesn't imply anything about the relevancy of the content. Interesting older material is always welcome here!
- JoshGG 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- rokkitmensch 3y agoIt's a reference to a historically- and culturally-important work of art, ya downvoting goons.
- j0hngalt 3y ago[flagged]
- woodruffw 3y agoMuch of Europe has sufficient natural fluoride levels in the groundwater, often exceeding the amounts put in North American water supplies. Where this isn’t true, fluoridated salt is common (in my experience).
- zappb 3y ago[flagged]
- squidgyhead 3y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_by_countr... It seems that one or two European countries ban fluoridation; however few practice it. But "Europe banned this" is simply false. Moreover, it seems that there is fluoridation of salt instead (eg in Switzerland).
- kalleboo 3y agoAccording to the other Wikipedia article, fluoridated salt where it is used (Switzerland and Germany) has about a 70% market share, so there is a choice for those who don't want it. It's a lot harder to opt-out of tap water. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Worldwide_prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Worldwide_p...
- Infinity315 3y ago> Nobody should be subjected to mandatory fluoride in their tap water. Why? Just for the sake of freedom? I think this raises an interesting question. Suppose we have empirical irrefutable proof a practice is beneficial and doing so would not hinder anyone's lives whatsoever (as in, you don't have to change your lifestyle at all). Can this practice then be justified? For example, suppose that fluoridating tap water (at least in the quantities present in most municipalities) was shown through many longitudinal studies to not have any adverse effects but was shown to have positive effects such as improved dental health. Would you support fluoridating water then?
- smrtinsert 3y ago[flagged]
- zarathustreal 3y agoPlease do explain. From the outside you appear to be questioning the value of conserving freedom(s)
- jabits 3y agoConservatism is about conserving the status quo. Our freedoms are enshrined in the Constitution.
- rokkitmensch 3y agoIt's entirely reasonable to object to population level health interventions. We don't have to shoehorn everything into the binary crisis, even if the narrative overlords are pleased for us to do their work for them. The phrase and sentiment that I keep coming back to, that seems to work on both sides of the aisle, is something along the lines of "while I completely disagree, I absolutely understand where X is coming from in re...". It's very telling that you can't get a "pro guns pro abortions" bumper sticker in the states.
- BiggerNait 3y ago[flagged]
- JoshGG 3y agoDevelopmental fluoride neurotoxicity: an updated review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ Conclusion The recent epidemiological results support the notion that elevated fluoride intake during early development can result in IQ deficits that may be considerable. Recognition of neurotoxic risks is necessary when determining the safety of fluoride-contaminated drinking water and fluoride uses for preventive dentistry purposes. Environ Health. 2019; 18: 110. Published online 2019 Dec 19. doi: 10.1186/s12940-019-0551-x PMCID: PMC6923889PMID: 31856837 Developmental fluoride neurotoxicity: an updated review Philippe Grandjeancorresponding author1,2 Author information Article notes Copyright and License information PMC Disclaimer 1Department of Environmental Health, Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Boston, MA 02115 USA 2Department of Public Health, University of Southern Denmark, Odense, Denmark Philippe Grandjean, Email: kd.uds.htlaeh@naejdnargp. corresponding authorCorresponding author
- defrost 3y agoWith the usual caveat that in G20 countries, fluoridation is recommended at a concentration of 0.7 mg/L .. ie only added if levels are below that. Fluoride meta studies, such as the one above, look at areas with extremely high levels of natural fluoridation, starting at least at one and half times the recommended dose and looking at areas with double, triple, and more that level. There are issues in areas with high fluoridation levels, the fluoride and the other high metals levels in these regions in China and Mexico ... But not basis for back propagating issues at high doses in multi metals areas to infer issues at the lower recommended dose rates.
- gizmo686 3y ago> Results > Fourteen recent cross-sectional studies from endemic areas with naturally high fluoride concentrations in groundwater supported the previous findings of cognitive deficits in children with elevated fluoride exposures. Three recent prospective studies from Mexico and Canada with individual exposure data showed that early-life exposures were negatively associated with children’s performance on cognitive tests. Neurotoxicity appeared to be dose-dependent, and tentative benchmark dose calculations suggest that safe exposures are likely to be below currently accepted or recommended fluoride concentrations in drinking water. Having said that, the linked paper also notes that the benifits of flouridated water do not seem to be significant (likely do to the widespread use of flouridated toothpaste).
- readyplayernull 3y agoBad news for the fluoride salesmen.
- ekianjo 3y agoFluoride may be good for teeth, but bad for quite a few other things - here's just one of many studies related to that: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6923889/ Many countries across the world refuse to add fluoride. It's mainly a US and Australia thing. The fact that NPR is on board without even reporting the other side of the coin is just pure state propaganda.
- thsksbd 3y agoAmericans' teeth have been described as unsettlingly perfect. As unsettling as our mental health
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- woodruffw 3y agoMany countries around the world have natural fluoride in their groundwater (much of Europe), use other dietary sources for fluoride (salt), or have a significant dietary component that naturally contains fluoride (tea). What makes water fluoridation good public health policy isn’t that we do it blindly; it’s that it gets balanced against demographic and geographic factors that don’t necessary apply everywhere else in the world.
- ekianjo 3y ago> Many countries around the world have natural fluoride in their groundwater (much of Europe) This seems to refute your claim about Europe: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31940-x/figures/1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31940-x/figures/1 However, another study seems to indicate Germany is particularly at risk in Europe of high fluoride concentrations: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987123002013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S167498712...
- woodruffw 3y ago
- hresvelgr 3y ago> Katie Mather, who lives in Richmond, a town of about 4,100 in northwestern Vermont, said at a water commission meeting this week that her dentist recently found her two kids' first cavities. She acknowledged they eat a lot of sugar, but noted that her dentist recommended against supplemental fluoride because the town's water should be doing the trick. People can get conspiracy about this as much as they like, but at the end of the day, it's money. Diet is one of the largest factors in dental health and the average American diet is high in sugar. People can barely afford going to the hospital let alone a dentist. This is quite measurably the cheapest way of preventing millions of people becoming a burden to the healthcare system.
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- ChrisArchitect 3y ago(2022) Some more discussion then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33292353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33292353
- narrator 3y agoIn this thread, we will see the method of reasoning where people decide conclusions that are unacceptable and then proceed to dismiss as false by definition all facts and data that lead to any one of those unacceptable conclusions.