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The poor historically have had more children because it was cheap labor (and a lack of birth control options). Much of that labor is no longer as valuable to p

The poor historically have had more children because it was cheap labor (and a lack of birth control options). Much of that labor is no longer as valuable to people for various complex reasons, and contraceptives are more widely available. I think this is overall a positive trend, as it is likely to lead to a reduction in children being born into situations where they are not adequately cared for. If at some point we see a need to create more incentives for people to reproduce, that sounds fime to me.

Const-me 3y ago
> If at some point we see a need to create more incentives for people to reproduce, that sounds fime to me Population is declining in about half of the world countries, see that table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer... Among them are very developed and rich countries: South Korea, Japan, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Australia. In most of these countries, governments realized long ago that rapid population decline is bad for the economy. In some of them like Japan, governments started implementing various incentives decades ago. As you see from the numbers in that table, these incentives didn’t work.
aprilthird2021 3y ago
> If at some point we see a need to create more incentives for people to reproduce, that sounds fime to me. But lots of evidence shows this doesn't work because no amount of incentives changes the fact that having a kid is a sacrifice. People need a reason to make such a sacrifice. And the decline of religion, nationalism, etc. with the rise in isolation, individualism, cosmopolitanism, etc. gives people few reasons to sacrifice for the future in the form of bearing children. Not that any of those things are bad or good, but they are the declining and rising trends in the world. In fact, I'd argue as nationalism rises in the rich European countries this study profiled, so too do you see birth rates slightly rise
- slfnflctd 3y ago
  > no amount of incentives changes the fact that having a kid is a sacrifice My thought here is that the types of incentive(s) matter more than the amount. > I'd argue as nationalism rises in the rich European countries this study profiled, so too do you see birth rates slightly rise This to me simply describes another type of incentive (albeit an incredibly challenging one to implement intentionally or well). It may be more abstract/fuzzy/undefinable but that's still what it is. This example brings to mind concepts of culture, community, a stronger sense of social trust, and an expectation of support/assistance more aligned with the parents' values in raising a child. Now, all we have to do is come up with a form of 'nationalism' which works nearly anywhere but has fewer downsides... which is, of course, a difficult and unsolved problem.
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
    Insofar as one's beliefs about sacrificing for the greater good being an incentive, yes, it's all about aligning incentives. But having a child isn't seen as a responsibility one has to one's own parents, who sacrificed to have them, or a responsibility to one's people, culture, or religion anymore. That's the ultimate root of all these problems. People now get to choose whether or not to have a kid, and not everything people choose is good for society.

Const-me 3y ago

> If at some point we see a need to create more incentives for people to reproduce, that sounds fime to me Population is declining in about half of the world countries, see that table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer... Among them are very developed and rich countries: South Korea, Japan, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Australia. In most of these countries, governments realized long ago that rapid population decline is bad for the economy. In some of them like Japan, governments started implementing various incentives decades ago. As you see from the numbers in that table, these incentives didn’t work.

aprilthird2021 3y ago

> If at some point we see a need to create more incentives for people to reproduce, that sounds fime to me. But lots of evidence shows this doesn't work because no amount of incentives changes the fact that having a kid is a sacrifice. People need a reason to make such a sacrifice. And the decline of religion, nationalism, etc. with the rise in isolation, individualism, cosmopolitanism, etc. gives people few reasons to sacrifice for the future in the form of bearing children. Not that any of those things are bad or good, but they are the declining and rising trends in the world. In fact, I'd argue as nationalism rises in the rich European countries this study profiled, so too do you see birth rates slightly rise

slfnflctd 3y ago
> no amount of incentives changes the fact that having a kid is a sacrifice My thought here is that the types of incentive(s) matter more than the amount. > I'd argue as nationalism rises in the rich European countries this study profiled, so too do you see birth rates slightly rise This to me simply describes another type of incentive (albeit an incredibly challenging one to implement intentionally or well). It may be more abstract/fuzzy/undefinable but that's still what it is. This example brings to mind concepts of culture, community, a stronger sense of social trust, and an expectation of support/assistance more aligned with the parents' values in raising a child. Now, all we have to do is come up with a form of 'nationalism' which works nearly anywhere but has fewer downsides... which is, of course, a difficult and unsolved problem.
- aprilthird2021 3y ago
  Insofar as one's beliefs about sacrificing for the greater good being an incentive, yes, it's all about aligning incentives. But having a child isn't seen as a responsibility one has to one's own parents, who sacrificed to have them, or a responsibility to one's people, culture, or religion anymore. That's the ultimate root of all these problems. People now get to choose whether or not to have a kid, and not everything people choose is good for society.