3 ms·

> You are not buying from a supplier, you are a raccoon digging through dumpsters for free code. That implies that the FOSS code is garbage which we all know i

by pards 3y ago

> You are not buying from a supplier, you are a raccoon digging through dumpsters for free code. That implies that the FOSS code is garbage which we all know it is not. > I am more than happy to become a supplier[...] which means you are going to have to start to pay me. I'd love to see large enterprises contribute _something_ to FOSS. In many cases, they forbid their staff from contributing code and they certainly don't contribute in any way financially. It's astounding, really, that much of our financial system relies on FOSS libraries like OpenSSL, Spring, and Apache and yet they do little to ensure its ongoing health.

WJW 3y ago
I don't think that is astounding at all. Most companies have been contributing nothing for decades and all the work gets done anyway!!! Every once in a while some FOSS maintainer quits and writes an angry blog post, but in aggregate all these projects seem to keep ticking along just fine. If one projects dies or starts charging money, several other sprout up that don't; the recent Redis kerfuffle is a prime example.
falcor84 3y ago
> That implies that the FOSS code is garbage which we all know it is not. That's not quite how I read it. FOSS in general (e.g. public github as a whole) is a "pile" of projects widely ranging in quality, most relatively poor. It's up to all of us to use our "raccoon noses" to find the treasures or "diamonds in the rough".
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  To add to this, the raccoon is looking for free-as-in-beer food. What do most people (including businesses) want? Free-as-in-beer software, because nobody wants to pay out unless they get an invoice in the mail. What does FOSS provide? Free-as-in-beer open source software.
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    What's more, if the raccoon is particularly savvy - or let's say, he's a human dumpster diver looking for one-day-past-expiration bread - he's aware that some stores will pour bleach onto their food products. He knows the risks, and it's kind of silly to suggest that the store throwing out the bread owes it to the raccoon to provide it on a fine dining platter.
- ADeerAppeared 3y ago
  The quality isn't the (main) point, it's the supply-chain relationship. Suppose our Raccoon finds a fan in the dumpster. Standard electric consumer grade fan. It might even be a really nice not-garbage fan. It's just been put out free to take on the condition that there's no liability or guaranteed support. If the Raccoon uses the fan as expected; For personal cooling purposes. There's no problem. If the fan breaks, the original creator says "WONTFIX", the racoon is a little sad but all is fine in the world. Suppose instead our Raccoon runs a major aircraft manufacturing company. If it were to take this fan and use the fan blade for a turbojet engine. The fan breaks now, a plane crash-lands and people are injured, the big company insists that it be repaired immediately. The original creator says "WONTFIX", and the company's VP of security is outraged. "Do you not understand how serious this is? The fan is used in a major airplane, you must fix it. It's no longer a hobby, you're part of our supply chain!" Now obviously, were Raccoon-Boeing to use fan blades from consumer fans put out on the road free-to-take, there'd be mass outrage. Obviously the person who gave away their fan isn't liable for the misuse of the thing they gave away. They owe the company nothing. If anything there'd be riots in the streets about the Racoons being this reckless. So why do we let software firms get away with this?
Dalewyn 3y ago
>yet they do little to ensure its ongoing health. My late mother who was an accountant taught me a very important lesson about business: Nobody's going to pay you until you send them an invoice.
DannyBee 3y ago
I do not, for a second, believe most maintainers would take money in exchange for being forced to follow good best practices in coding, testing, releasing, etc Some would, but most are believing they would get paid for a hobby. Nobody is going to pay for a hobby, in part because it won't solve anything if they did Once they are paid to be real suppliers, they will not enjoy it at all. The vast majority of people who have ever tried to turn their hobby into a profession will tell you the same thing - if you want to ruin a hobby, add customers, standards, money, and deadlines. While, like I said, some will be fine with this, to me the money thing is overall a huge red herring.
- 63stack 3y ago
  >I do not, for a second, believe most maintainers would take money in exchange for being forced to follow good best practices in coding, testing, releasing, etc Strange, I would not expect any of that from any "enterprise". Most open source projects are much better at these than anything I have seen in enterprise.

by pards 3y ago

WJW 3y ago

I don't think that is astounding at all. Most companies have been contributing nothing for decades and all the work gets done anyway!!! Every once in a while some FOSS maintainer quits and writes an angry blog post, but in aggregate all these projects seem to keep ticking along just fine. If one projects dies or starts charging money, several other sprout up that don't; the recent Redis kerfuffle is a prime example.

falcor84 3y ago

> That implies that the FOSS code is garbage which we all know it is not. That's not quite how I read it. FOSS in general (e.g. public github as a whole) is a "pile" of projects widely ranging in quality, most relatively poor. It's up to all of us to use our "raccoon noses" to find the treasures or "diamonds in the rough".

Dalewyn 3y ago
To add to this, the raccoon is looking for free-as-in-beer food. What do most people (including businesses) want? Free-as-in-beer software, because nobody wants to pay out unless they get an invoice in the mail. What does FOSS provide? Free-as-in-beer open source software.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  What's more, if the raccoon is particularly savvy - or let's say, he's a human dumpster diver looking for one-day-past-expiration bread - he's aware that some stores will pour bleach onto their food products. He knows the risks, and it's kind of silly to suggest that the store throwing out the bread owes it to the raccoon to provide it on a fine dining platter.
ADeerAppeared 3y ago
The quality isn't the (main) point, it's the supply-chain relationship. Suppose our Raccoon finds a fan in the dumpster. Standard electric consumer grade fan. It might even be a really nice not-garbage fan. It's just been put out free to take on the condition that there's no liability or guaranteed support. If the Raccoon uses the fan as expected; For personal cooling purposes. There's no problem. If the fan breaks, the original creator says "WONTFIX", the racoon is a little sad but all is fine in the world. Suppose instead our Raccoon runs a major aircraft manufacturing company. If it were to take this fan and use the fan blade for a turbojet engine. The fan breaks now, a plane crash-lands and people are injured, the big company insists that it be repaired immediately. The original creator says "WONTFIX", and the company's VP of security is outraged. "Do you not understand how serious this is? The fan is used in a major airplane, you must fix it. It's no longer a hobby, you're part of our supply chain!" Now obviously, were Raccoon-Boeing to use fan blades from consumer fans put out on the road free-to-take, there'd be mass outrage. Obviously the person who gave away their fan isn't liable for the misuse of the thing they gave away. They owe the company nothing. If anything there'd be riots in the streets about the Racoons being this reckless. So why do we let software firms get away with this?

Dalewyn 3y ago

>yet they do little to ensure its ongoing health. My late mother who was an accountant taught me a very important lesson about business: Nobody's going to pay you until you send them an invoice.

DannyBee 3y ago

I do not, for a second, believe most maintainers would take money in exchange for being forced to follow good best practices in coding, testing, releasing, etc Some would, but most are believing they would get paid for a hobby. Nobody is going to pay for a hobby, in part because it won't solve anything if they did Once they are paid to be real suppliers, they will not enjoy it at all. The vast majority of people who have ever tried to turn their hobby into a profession will tell you the same thing - if you want to ruin a hobby, add customers, standards, money, and deadlines. While, like I said, some will be fine with this, to me the money thing is overall a huge red herring.

63stack 3y ago
>I do not, for a second, believe most maintainers would take money in exchange for being forced to follow good best practices in coding, testing, releasing, etc Strange, I would not expect any of that from any "enterprise". Most open source projects are much better at these than anything I have seen in enterprise.