5 ms·

Anti-crime humps in medieval Venice

119 points by phront 2y ago

spenczar5 2y ago
I would to read more about this “crime saturated” period in Venice’s history. I don’t even know when it is! Any pointers?
- thsksbd 2y ago
  I would imagine her entire history to be crime ridden. Port cities are never too good, especially rich ones.
- hayst4ck 2y ago
  If you go to a university's library, the librarians there are frequently quite good at least finding sources that can lead you to other sources if not directly answering your question. If all else fails, they can probably help you find an expert to e-mail. I took the liberty of stalking you. I bet you if you e-mailed/visited either of the two people with "Italian Renaissance" here, they could probably directly help you answer your question: https://history.washington.edu/people/faculty https://history.washington.edu/people/faculty I spent a bit of time trying to answer that question (because I enjoy the exercise of it), and it looks like this would probably be an easier question for a speaker of Italian to answer. I eventually found this book: https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065 https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065 The sample pages of that book suggest there is not very much authoritative information on them and I didn't see an earliest known date of construction of them. https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history-of-the-codega.html https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history... That seems to suggest the middle of the 15th century is the answer to your question since the profession of codega appeared at the same time they were built according to the first article. This seems to be relevant too: https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en
  - spenczar5 2y ago
    Wow, thanks for sharing the research!
SamBam 2y ago
Huh, an early example of "hostile architecture," although one I could get behind more readily. (Or not, as the case may be...)
- Ajay-p 2y ago
  Some of them might provide a nice place to sit and rest.
ransom1538 2y ago
Eh. Those look like anti-pee systems to me. I bet it was an official take "to reduce crime" - but those things are all slanted down, to push pee on your foot. And when I need to pee corners always catch my eye.
- rpeden 2y ago
  The article mentioned this was another reason for their existence.
- bcraven 2y ago
  "However, the "antibandito humps" had a second usefulness, so much so that it received a second name: that of the "pissotte" or "pissabraghe": in addition to preventing criminals from hiding from their prey, it's said that the inclined casts of mortar also had the task to maintain a certain public decorum and therefore prevent Venetians from urinating in the corners of the calli."
  - bombcar 2y ago
    I suspect it was the primary purpose, and anything else sounds like cleaned up reasons for publication. As it wouldn't be hard to stand on one in the shadows.
maushu 2y ago
I always thought this was only to avoid public urination. I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  A nice example of Hegelian Dialectic (if we're being XIX) or Robinson Resolution (if we're being XX), involving public defecation being a crime, occurred recently in Catalunya: Thesis: the guy pooping is a traditional element of the nativity scene Antithesis: government sponsored nativities shouldn't depict crime Synthesis: keep the guy, but add a police officer, writing the guy a ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surrounding_Barcelona's_civility_ordinance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surroundin...
  - jadbox 2y ago
    This is such a Zizek-esk kind of example of the dialectic, but I haven't heard him reference this as a classic example.
  - bckr 2y ago
    What do you mean by XIX and XX? Thanks for the link to the caganer! Holy crap, that is amazing.
    - uptime 2y ago
      Perfect summary, well done.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      XIX: nineteenth century; XX: twentieth century; we're in the XXI now (even if we don't seem to be acting much like it) [nb. this notation is (without red ink?) unsuitable for dates before the Age of Pisces]
      - bckr 2y ago
        Is this some occultism thing?
orthoxerox 2y ago
There are urine deflectors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector all over Europe. Norwich in particular has a lot of them.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  I'd rather effort was put into providing public toilets and urinals - public urination is the symptom of not enough facilities.
  - Chris2048 2y ago
    Shout out to Dublin, that closed all its Victorian public inner-city toilets b/c it couldn't be bothered to police them (much as it doesn't police ASB anywhere), shifting responsibility to local businesses, most of which are now "Toilets are for customers only" as a result..
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      In Belfast we had neither public toilets nor public bins for many years. Too easy to drop bombs into. No double decker buses either at the defusal robot couldn't climb stairs.
      - Chris2048 2y ago
        Well, yes. Many airports (and train stations) don't have them for the same reason. But I don't believe it's concerns over UDF/IRA that pushed them to close the WCs, it's the same reason they hardly fix inner-city potholes.
  - Mawr 2y ago
    Or even simpler - build more green spaces with grass, shrubbery and trees. Peeing on those is harmless and they provide other significant benefits as well.
  - fasa99 2y ago
xg15 2y ago
> Having the function of anti-crime and urinal deterrent as well as an educational tool for citizens The "education" being when someone pisses on it and finds out what happens?

119 points by phront 2y ago

I would to read more about this “crime saturated” period in Venice’s history. I don’t even know when it is! Any pointers?

thsksbd 2y ago
I would imagine her entire history to be crime ridden. Port cities are never too good, especially rich ones.
hayst4ck 2y ago
If you go to a university's library, the librarians there are frequently quite good at least finding sources that can lead you to other sources if not directly answering your question. If all else fails, they can probably help you find an expert to e-mail. I took the liberty of stalking you. I bet you if you e-mailed/visited either of the two people with "Italian Renaissance" here, they could probably directly help you answer your question: https://history.washington.edu/people/faculty https://history.washington.edu/people/faculty I spent a bit of time trying to answer that question (because I enjoy the exercise of it), and it looks like this would probably be an easier question for a speaker of Italian to answer. I eventually found this book: https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065 https://www.lespressesdureel.com/EN/ouvrage.php?id=11065 The sample pages of that book suggest there is not very much authoritative information on them and I didn't see an earliest known date of construction of them. https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history-of-the-codega.html https://www.venice-carnival.org/en/approfondimento/3/history... That seems to suggest the middle of the 15th century is the answer to your question since the profession of codega appeared at the same time they were built according to the first article. This seems to be relevant too: https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en https://journals.openedition.org/chs/148?lang=en
- spenczar5 2y ago
  Wow, thanks for sharing the research!

SamBam 2y ago

Huh, an early example of "hostile architecture," although one I could get behind more readily. (Or not, as the case may be...)

Ajay-p 2y ago
Some of them might provide a nice place to sit and rest.

ransom1538 2y ago

Eh. Those look like anti-pee systems to me. I bet it was an official take "to reduce crime" - but those things are all slanted down, to push pee on your foot. And when I need to pee corners always catch my eye.

rpeden 2y ago
The article mentioned this was another reason for their existence.
bcraven 2y ago
"However, the "antibandito humps" had a second usefulness, so much so that it received a second name: that of the "pissotte" or "pissabraghe": in addition to preventing criminals from hiding from their prey, it's said that the inclined casts of mortar also had the task to maintain a certain public decorum and therefore prevent Venetians from urinating in the corners of the calli."
- bombcar 2y ago
  I suspect it was the primary purpose, and anything else sounds like cleaned up reasons for publication. As it wouldn't be hard to stand on one in the shadows.

maushu 2y ago

I always thought this was only to avoid public urination. I wonder if they added the anti-crime as PR excuse.

082349872349872 2y ago
A nice example of Hegelian Dialectic (if we're being XIX) or Robinson Resolution (if we're being XX), involving public defecation being a crime, occurred recently in Catalunya: Thesis: the guy pooping is a traditional element of the nativity scene Antithesis: government sponsored nativities shouldn't depict crime Synthesis: keep the guy, but add a police officer, writing the guy a ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surrounding_Barcelona's_civility_ordinance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caganer#Controversy_surroundin...
- jadbox 2y ago
  This is such a Zizek-esk kind of example of the dialectic, but I haven't heard him reference this as a classic example.
- bckr 2y ago
  What do you mean by XIX and XX? Thanks for the link to the caganer! Holy crap, that is amazing.
  - uptime 2y ago
    Perfect summary, well done.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    XIX: nineteenth century; XX: twentieth century; we're in the XXI now (even if we don't seem to be acting much like it) [nb. this notation is (without red ink?) unsuitable for dates before the Age of Pisces]
    - bckr 2y ago
      Is this some occultism thing?

orthoxerox 2y ago

There are urine deflectors https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_deflector all over Europe. Norwich in particular has a lot of them.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
I'd rather effort was put into providing public toilets and urinals - public urination is the symptom of not enough facilities.
- Chris2048 2y ago
  Shout out to Dublin, that closed all its Victorian public inner-city toilets b/c it couldn't be bothered to police them (much as it doesn't police ASB anywhere), shifting responsibility to local businesses, most of which are now "Toilets are for customers only" as a result..
  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    In Belfast we had neither public toilets nor public bins for many years. Too easy to drop bombs into. No double decker buses either at the defusal robot couldn't climb stairs.
    - Chris2048 2y ago
      Well, yes. Many airports (and train stations) don't have them for the same reason. But I don't believe it's concerns over UDF/IRA that pushed them to close the WCs, it's the same reason they hardly fix inner-city potholes.
- Mawr 2y ago
  Or even simpler - build more green spaces with grass, shrubbery and trees. Peeing on those is harmless and they provide other significant benefits as well.
- fasa99 2y ago

xg15 2y ago

> Having the function of anti-crime and urinal deterrent as well as an educational tool for citizens The "education" being when someone pisses on it and finds out what happens?