7 ms·

Microsoft blocks even more customization apps in Windows 11 version 24H2

143 points by josephcsible 3y ago

wizzwizz4 3y ago
Extract from Adventures in application compatibility: The case of the jump into the middle of an instruction from nowhere by Raymond Chen. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20230324-00/?p=107966 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20230324-00/?p=10... > What happened is that we recently made changes to this internal function, and apparently those changes were enough to cause the patcher to go haywire. This is unfortunately a regular occurrence: Whenever a new build goes out, there’s a spike of Explorer crashes because all of these patchers start patching the wrong code, and Explorer starts crashing across all the systems that have these “shell enhancement” programs installed. If you’re really unlucky, their rogue patch crashes something in the Explorer startup path, and users finds themselves stuck with an unusable machine due to Explorer crash loops. I'm all for blaming Microsoft for all the world's ills, but I'd be inclined to assume good faith on this one.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- fake-name 3y ago
  I'd be more sympathetic if microsoft didn't keep making everything worse in each new version of windows since W7.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  That doesn't jibe with the fix being just simply to rename the executables. If they actually were flawed, renaming them wouldn't remove the flaw...
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    How do you know renaming them removes the flaw? All we know is that Taras Buria (or their sources) didn't encounter any crashes when they tried it, but not all correctness bugs are immediately obvious.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  From that same post: > The interesting thing here was how the program decided where to install its patches, and in particular how it managed to patch an function that was never exported or stored in a vtable: It found the function by contacting the Microsoft symbol server to get the names of all the functions in Explorer and their addresses! I don't think anyone would make a program do hacky binary patching like that just for fun. Presumably, they did it that way because Microsoft doesn't offer any reasonable way to accomplish the same functionality. If enough people used the hacky binary patch that it produced a noticeable spike in crashes, then I do blame Microsoft for making it necessary in the first place.
  - parineum 3y ago
    Frankly, if you want to customize windows, write your own shell instead patching a closed source binary. At the very least, crc before you patch.
- usrusr 3y ago
  Yet the root cause is Microsoft breaking compatibility with user expectations. That program their computer-savvy nephew installed for them? It was installed because Microsoft decided that it would be fine for aunty to re-learn everything. Likely because everybody with a say on the design team is using Macs.
- mintplant 3y ago
  Okay, then maybe they could stop messing things up instead of blaming their users? I would love to not have to run a third-party patcher to put my taskbar at the top of the screen where I've had it for a decade and a half.
- MikusR 3y ago
  Even the main picture in the article shows the error message that clearly states: "A new version might be available"
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    If they're blocking these programs by the name of the .exe file, then wouldn't a new version still be blocked?
- fieryskiff12 3y ago
  and from my experience, explorer can go haywire with certain file types (eg.: Opus) and merely sleeping and starting the machine again, after a couple of uses. And some windows machines from the windows 7 era can freeze program by program after some days just being on. On windows 10 you can replicate it by just pulling outages until you see this effect, or someing worse.
  - FdbkHb 3y ago
    The opus issue is truly unforgivable. The only way to reasonably browse folders that contain opus files for me has been to change the view to a list type, without any metadata detail, then go to the options in explorer to apply that view to all folders of the same type (explorer will automatically pick a set of configurations that changes depending on file type contained in a folder. In this case, it's the "music" type if it detects a majority of audio files). The issue is caused by the metadata parser and since it doesn't get prompted if you don't use a detailed column view you don't hit the issue that way. Of course, this represents a loss in functionality since you won't be able to sort things by metadata columns like artists/composer/album title etc.
trevortheblack 3y ago
I'm unfamiliar with the majority of these customization apps as I remain on Windows 10. Are the two apps mentioned (ExplorerPatch and StartAllBack) the most common user tweaking utilities atm?
- alok-g 3y ago
  For taskbar. Many other utilities are there. Most are normal apps. Some tweak registry. Taskbar replacement uses deeper tweaks, hence the claim that they are creating security issues.
HlessClaudesman 3y ago
Not being able to customise my environment is a dealbreaker for me. I will be converting my day to day machine to Linux rather than being nagged into a user hostile OS upgrade. Clearly Microsoft has given up on powerusers, the people who notice and sometimes fix flaws in their monolith. Seems shortsighted.
- wepple 3y ago
  What kept you on their platform this long if you don’t mind my asking?
  - ryanjshaw 3y ago
    Not OP, but in my case it's Visual Studio. It's just the best IDE for me, and I have literally decades of muscle memory using it. I first tried Linux sometime in the late 90s, and this might finally be the year I switch over. I do everything else in a Linux VM now, may as well run Linux as host and Windows as a VM.
    - cinntaile 3y ago
      You can use Visual Studio on Linux, I would assume you can configure it to use the same hotkeys as on Windows but I'm not sure.
      - iforgotpassword 3y ago
        Isn't that just vscode, that ugly abomination that I've given up trying to configure in a reasonable fashion after like 5 minutes every time I tried it out again? Anyways, I'm on jetbrains these days and never looked back.
        ryanjshaw 3y ago
        Yes, you're right, it's VS Code they're referring to and it's not the same thing. I tried JetBrains Rider and stopped using it after the console window didn't auto scroll as I logged stuff into it - I don't know how something so basic doesn't work properly. I should probably try again, as so many people recommend it that I can only assume I did something wrong to mess up the console. (Edited, I originally misunderstood your comment)
iAkashPaul 3y ago
Expecting this to be continuously possible on a proprietary OS is a lost cause. Even the LLM world has practically mirrored this.
- izacus 3y ago
  It was possible for literal decades, what are you going on about?
  - iAkashPaul 3y ago
    It was also possible to install an OS without needing to create an account.
danparsonson 3y ago
Windows? Oh I'd forgotten about that giggles behind Linux desktop
- Krasnol 3y ago
  You've forgotten about the most popular OS on this planet? I wouldn't take an OS recommendation from a person who happened to forget about that.
  - blooalien 3y ago
    > "You've forgotten about the most popular OS on this planet?" Android? That's Linux-based.
  - danparsonson 3y ago
    Sorry to have offended you - it was intended in humour as I have switched from using Windows as a daily driver and now I'm happily using Fedora. But don't worry, you can continue to use whatever you prefer.
    - Krasnol 3y ago
      You did not offend me...you've posted one of the most annoying memes on internet forums and communities. It stopped being funny many years ago. Especially on Windows topics, it only displays an attitude of ignorance while simultaneously derailing any relevant discussion.
      - danparsonson 3y ago
        Ah. Well in that case I'm sorry for whatever is eating at you, because it surely isn't just a random internet person gloating about their choice of operating system. I wish you a better day, truly.
snailmailman 3y ago
I’m still holding off updating to windows 11 as it still doesn’t have feature parity with windows 10. The biggest one was the option to not merge apps in the taskbar down to one icon, and the option to show titles. They finally brought that feature to 11, but apparently the smaller taskbar is gone too? The only option was a larger one that always takes up much more space. I like it to show all the time, so I’d prefer a thinner taskbar. Sure there are these hacky third party apps, but it’s not native. I don’t understand why they took all these power-user features away. As far as I know you can’t put the taskbar on the side or top edges of the screen either.
- MikusR 3y ago
  They did not take them away. They decided not to add them. Windows 11 is a result of taking Windows 10, adding arbitrary cpu limitation to it, and bolting on a bunch of crap from the cancelled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10X
- archerx 3y ago
  I don’t know what microsoft is thinking, there is no real reason to use windows 11, it is a downgrade in a lot of ways. At least windows 10 held directx12 hostage as an incentive to upgrade. Its funny, everytime I boot up one of my systems that still has windows 7 installed it feels so nice, even better than 10 much less 11. I think microsoft is playing a dangerous game with messing around with windows like this, it could lead to a domino effect causing a mass exodus of users. Google is going through the same thing now, it was the king of search but now search sucks and I and my friends are using other search engines more and moving away from google tools. I don’t even remember the last time I used gmail.
  - zelphirkalt 3y ago
    Yes, they are losing users over this. Although I have also heard of technologically capable people running into having their system auto-upgraded somehow and now using 11. Don't ask me how in the world they accept this. If that happened to me, I would reinstall the previous OS, even out of principle alone. And then MS seems to think they are doing any better with their online office suite. Well no, there are many people, who even want to quit their jobs, because of having to use that shit and how dystopian bad it is. MS losing more reputation there as well. I feel there is a notion now, that MS is simply no longer able to make any quality software product. They got VSCode, but that will be enshittified before long as well.
Krasnol 3y ago
> Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable. This is ridiculous. I assume they just want to prevent average Joanne to use the tool, but she wouldn't do it either way or even get the idea to look for it. I mean...there are still people out there browsing the internet without UBlock. So what's the point?
- jwrallie 3y ago
  I’m not on windows 11 but I wonder if you could rename a different executable and get it blocked in the same way?
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    The "solution" is so stupid, this might actually work. Don't have it though too.
- FdbkHb 3y ago
  >So what's the point? The point is if it breaks after an update you have to get into windows safe mode to unbreak your system if ExplorerPatcher causes an explorer crash loop (which it did in the past after windows updates ran). Even not-too-average Joe might get stumped by this and not immediately know what to do. The process of getting into safe mode is very cumbersome in itself if you need to do it from a system that boots into the desktop without any issue (windows doesn't consider the explorer crashing infinitely to be an issue): you need to forcefully shut down your computer three times /during the boot process of windows/ so that windows thinks "there's an issue" and gets you into the Recovery mode. It's not like during Windows 7 and older releases where you only needed to press the F8 key to get a menu for safe mode boot. Anything that forces you to attempt to get into safe mode to fix is thoroughly undesirable and unfun to experience.
Pilottwave 3y ago
I just want some basic functions that were present in all previous Windows versions. Classic start bar in a vertical position on the second screen only. hear my prayers Microsoft
dave7 3y ago
I expect this will be resolved with an update quickly, but ExplorerPatcher is wonderful and absolutely key to my enjoyment of Windows 11.
withinrafael 3y ago
There are plenty of reasons to skewer Microsoft, but this isn't one of them. Microsoft isn't blocking all customization apps here, of course. They're blocking known [1][2] unreliable, poorly written, high crash rate software that is extremely sensitive to OS changes, hotfixes, and/or upgrades due to the nature of the software (e.g. hooking functions, patching memory, etc). The block is geared towards a specific revision of the software. The authors will just need to fix the bugs, rev the executable version, and they're good to go. Again. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/resolved-issues-windows-11-22h2#3029msgdesc https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/res... [2] https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/issues https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/issues
- Havoc 3y ago
  If they offered decent in house customisability then people wouldn’t need to resort to unreliable 3rd party solutions. Why can’t I have a vertical taskbar? Is that really beyond the combined technical ability of a three trillion corp? Obviously not so it’s a conscious choice to not give users options and control
- eviks 3y ago
  The other alternative to blocking is, of course, to offer good UI with robust customization capabilities so others could change "the nature of " their "software" to something more simple and less crash-prone
- anal_reactor 3y ago
  > They're blocking known [1][2] unreliable, poorly written, high crash rate software that is extremely sensitive to OS changes, hotfixes, and/or upgrades due to the nature of the software (e.g. hooking functions, patching memory, etc). That people still somehow prefer over native Windows. Makes you realize how bad Windows actually is.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  Is there any evidence that the software is actually poorly written? Isn't the only reason they use undocumented/unstable hacks that Microsoft refuses to provide a documented or stable way of doing what they want to do?
alok-g 3y ago
This is a deal breaker for me too. I updated to Windows 11 only once I found ExplorerPatcher. Were it not for sizeable investments in Windows-specific apps, I would have moved away. I am currently using: * ExplorerPatcher (replace taskbar) * OpenShell (replace start menu) * ProcessExplorer (replace task manager) * XYPlorer (replace file manager) * Utilities like Notepad++, Paint.net * Winsplit Revolution (Window management) * BatteryCare (Power management) * USBSafelyRemove (USB device management) * Etc.
- Krasnol 3y ago
  The solution is in the article: you just have to rename the exe.
  - alok-g 3y ago
    Yes, I read that. Solution for the time being ... And hopefully though updates to the tools with regards to the security issues by itself keeps it all good.
- simooooo 3y ago
  There is no deal, you’re effectively modding an os in unintended ways
  - xeonmc 3y ago
    He is altering the deal. Pray that he don't alter it any further.
  - alok-g 3y ago
    I agree. The very reason why those tools exist though is because there's a sizeable enough demand. What's under question is that 'unintention', all the more so when features are being removed, without leaving some settings in for power users. Some user experience changes seem backward steps.
  - chmod775 3y ago
    Maybe I'm too old, but since when is simply using another software as opposed to built-ins considered modding? Most of these seem like replacements to me. If doing that little is now considered "modding" a desktop OS, we've fucked up somewhere. Even phone OSes like Android let you download replacements of built-ins (such as another launcher, file manager, photo app) right from their app store.
maxglute 3y ago
It's really annoying to see microsoft spend 100s of billions on AI and not have side aligned task bar.
appstorelottery 3y ago
It's a pity Microsoft is taking this direction, it's almost like they are completely abandoning their old user base. I feel that they should be doing the opposite of what Apple is doing - remove telemetry and ads, perhaps charge for a "developer" version of the OS, encourage independent software development and help with discovery (i.e. give away free code-signing keys)... I moved away from Windows as my desktop in 2002 and opted for Apple, and if MS changed their direction - at least for me as a developer - I would embrace "switching back". I'm completely sick of what Apple is doing, and yet aside from open source - where is the large-scale commercial competition that's screaming "we are the opposite of Apple."? I can only speak for myself, however I would be the hugest fanboy for Microsoft if they showed some leadership and actually gave me what I wanted... Microsoft built its business on developers - some people want to customise their UI - what is the compelling argument to marginalise this minority?
- microtonal 3y ago
  What is Apple doing? macOS doesn’t seem to have changed much in the last few versions, which is great, because it’s a mature OS. macOS had been completely uneventful for me the last few years and recovered well from the terrible Mojave/Catalina days with the slow overheating Intel MacBooks.
  - appstorelottery 3y ago
    I suppose I'm talking about how they continue to lock-down the os, in combination with their App-store. For example, hooking into the kernel is now very difficult - apps like Little Snitch running on Sonoma have a much harder job. Apple has wholesale telemetry going on that nobody seems to talk about. Apple have very little commitment to backwards compatibility, which is something that Microsoft took very seriously. In terms of GUI, look at what Apple did with the settings menu - it's pretty horrible IMHO - however Microsoft still has the old Control Panel for users that have grown up with it. Distributing an app for OSX outside of the App Store is painful, no cert - the OS just won't run it, it requires diving into the settings menu and forcing it to run - in more extreme cases it requires command-line intervention to force it to run the application... so on and so on... It's just a trend that makes me unhappy as a developer. Contrast this with the "old" Apple in 2005/6, I could write a game, put it up for download as a DMG file - and even post it to Apple's website for help with promotion and discovery! There were plenty of 3rd party payment solutions available, Apple didn't take a 30% cut. What they were back in the day is actually helpful.
Springtime 3y ago
Microsoft still haven't implemented a native vertical taskbar after all the years of it being in the top voted[1] request (part of the request to move to any side of the screen) and the fact it's been part of Windows for like 15 years. It's a dealbreaker tbh. Third-party tools that restored the W10 taskbar in W11 allowed users to continue having a taskbar that's usable for them yet the latest W11 betas show they're removing that legacy code. It'd be fine if they were replacing it with an equivalent but they're not. [1] https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-taskbar-is-the-most-requested-feature-on-feedback-hub/ https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-t...
- jiggawatts 3y ago
  It's because the Windows 11 UI was designed by people who've never used anything other that an Apple Mac. Yes, Microsoft hires employees with zero Windows experience to design their operating system. That's why the Windows 11 taskbar has the icons centred -- because Apple OSX does too. That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. Etc...
  - supernes 3y ago
    You can move the Dock to the side of the screen and in fact many people do. What's the excuse for not copying that functionality?
    - out-of-ideas 3y ago
      this assumes the programmer knows how to change app settings; ive seen many a great programmers know quite little about the actual apps they install (or comes with) and use; dont even get me started about folks who "program" but simply just edit a file and dont use the actual app to test things (and instead rely on build-systems) - strange i must say, but it happens so much im not surprised by it, just forever saddened
      - supernes 3y ago
bitwize 3y ago
Microsoft gonna Microsoft. It's to be expected that they try to shape user behavior to what they want with scary messages about "security and performance". Wait till they do the same with e.g. non-Edge browsers.
Havoc 3y ago
If gaming anticheat and media DRM worked on Linux I’d be so gone
- supernes 3y ago
  Widevine kind of works on Linux IIRC, but hardware accelerated VP9 decode is a huge issue still. It was fine for a while, then Google broke support in Chromium and made it work only in their ecosystem (ChromeOS).
  - Havoc 3y ago
    >Widevine kind of works on Linux IIRC Haven't looked at it in a while, but last I did it "worked". Resolution on netflix ends up being fine - 1080p - but I couldn't help shake the feeling that its worse. ...check bitrates and sure enough...less than half. Never worked out why, but that's a bit of a show stopper when combined with no online shooters.
    - supernes 3y ago
      Not the first time something like this has happened. You can try lying about your User Agent next time, it could work! https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/07/microsofts-xcloud-game-streaming-looks-worse-on-linux-than-windows/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/07/microsofts-xcloud-gam...
TLLtchvL8KZ 3y ago
I'm currently sitting on Windows 10 LTSC IoT and refuse to move. I am now planning, because my laptop is a little old now, to purchase an M3 iMac in a few months or at the end of the year. I've tried 11 a few times. I do not like it, I do not like the look of it and most of all I absolutely HATE that I cannot have the taskbar on the left hand side of the screen.
- Ringz 3y ago
  Switched to MacOS 10 years ago. Never looked back. And I started with DOS, teached WindowsNT on admin level and kept my Windows installations “alive” through fiddling with the registry (while everyone reinstalled it). Nowadays I live more and more in the terminal…
hans_castorp 3y ago
It's like they are actively trying to force users to switch to something different.
Dwedit 3y ago
I'm already being extremely cautious with Windows 11 updates. This includes doing a full disk image backup before installing them. I don't want to get that one special update that breaks ExplorerPatcher, or another update that denies Local Accounts. So I have all automatic updating blocked, and done in such a way that I can revert back if any important features broke. In the meantime, is this update that's being named in the article actively going out to people who aren't beta testers? Maybe I'll do my 'final' update for a while soon as long as ExplorerPatcher continues to work.
thyrox 3y ago
Guess it's time to jump to macOS finally. I've always wanted to try that but due to prohibitive costs never did. But with more and more Windows shenanigans I guess it's time to bite the bullet and make the switch .
- ktosobcy 3y ago
  as someone with about 15y exclusive (and then on and off basis) windows experience and then 10y of mac experience I'm finally contemplating moving to Linux... before I moved to mac I already tried to use open source, multi platform apps (libre office, thunderbird for example) so the switch was relatively painless. And I also stopped playing that many games (age and mac limitations). I also use a lot of Linux (mostly servers and mac shell) and got steam deck recently and oh gosh it's so nice - everything just works, you can run virtually any game and it's not so imposing as windows or mac
- teo_zero 3y ago
  I don't think the right solution for feeling hostage of a proprietary OS is to switch to another proprietary OS.
eviks 3y ago
> you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else what a theater!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
userbinator 3y ago
It's worth reminding yourself that there are people at MS actively working to make your lives worse. I'm curious how they feel about implementing such things --- or, when they initially decided to come up with the idea of rewriting the taskbar and removing a bunch of features, was there no opposition from the employees who clearly use Windows themselves? No power users work at MS? I wonder how long it'll be before someone comes out with a "distro" that combines the Windows 11 kernel with the Windows 2000/XP userland. WinPE 11 exists, and it actually has some bits of UI that still look like Win7.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  Wouldn't wonder if there is a ms internal bullshit free win distro.
  - userbinator 3y ago
    I doubt it, based on what some MS employees have commented here in the past.
krimskrams 3y ago
After having used Windows for over 20 years (XP to 10), I decided to switch to Linux a year and a half ago and I'm happy for it. The requirement for a Microsoft Account and nonsensical UI changes requiring more clicks to reach the settings I want was annoying but not a deal breaker at first. Microsoft has also been trying to make Windows more like MacOS, or a mobile tablet, since Windows 8 which I don't like. What really made me worry about the future of the Windows ecosystem is the increasing amount of telemetry and Microsoft's endless attempts at trying to monetise every part of the system at the expense of my user experience, even if I paid for a license. Making the base OS usable by disabling telemetry (and Cortana) hidden away in the settings has become a hassle. The UX dark patterns trying to make me switch from Firefox to Edge has become tiring for me. Them experimenting with ads in the file system, even if it was an experimental feature that was "never meant" for public release, made me wonder how far they were willing to push it in future Windows iterations, so I made the switch. Edit: Worth mentioning that I switched to Fedora XFCE and I stuck with it because it doesn't get in the way of my workflow. I also noticed that it doesn't use as much background resources as W10 which is great.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  I don't think it's so much Linux getting better as Windows getting worse. Like even beyond having ads in the start menu and having the default browser open up to a gigantic chumbox, a lot of the things Linux was historically getting crap for like the inconsistent UI elements; that stuff is so much worse on Windows now. Running KDE apps in Gnome or vice versa looks significantly more visually consistent than running Windows apps in Windows.
  - snapplebobapple 3y ago
    Go boot up and use a vm with kde3 then kde4 then kde5 then kde6 and i think you will rescind your claim. Its night and day better over time. I suspect even gnome has improved but i dont have the experience with it so i cant authoritatively comment.
    - commoner 3y ago
NKosmatos 3y ago
Another indication that the soul searching and decay inside Microsoft is doing its thing (in cycles). It’s a pity seeing a multibillion company not focusing on its core values. HN readers of a certain age, will for sure remember Windows 8, Windows Vista and Windows Me :-) Windows 11 feels the same for me, and is the reason why it’s not installed in any of my PCs. Mind you, it’s not that macOS is in a better situation, it’s following the same trajectory for some years now. This is what happens when a big and established company gets tired and starts loosing its soul (see Boing).
zb3 3y ago
Windows = Adware
kyriakos 3y ago
I think this is a sensationalist article. The unsupported software are blocked on a pre release version of Windows, this is not a final release to consumers. It's very likely to be because some underlying OS changes break these tools which either will be fixed by the authors or by Microsoft before release.
bastard_op 3y ago
I'd love to know why Microsoft takes this sort of passive aggressive breaking of applications to try to change and fix their obviously sub-par UI in Windows 11, trying to force users to accept and adapt to it, vs improving it by putting it back to what it was a built-in option, and now blocking software to do so. It's like someone there takes public hatred of their changes personally as an affront, and insists users should just deal with it and the crappy UI changes everyone hates. It is like the stink of Steve Ballmer never left. I use Linux for everything desktop for almost 20 years now, but keep a windoze vm for Visio, Project, or random other windoze-only crap, and windows 11 just looks grating to even consider. As most do historically, I skip every other windoze version, it has literally added nothing I need since windows xp, and would continue to use it if I could get OS security patches still as a runtime environment for the few mentioned applications. For the little I do use it, ie. basic navigation and launching apps in the task bar, Microsoft almost ruins what I do have to habitually since XP. I never wanted or needed anything added in 7, 8, 10, or 11.
AwaAwa 3y ago
I think Microsoft's long term vision is to turn all personal computing machines into dumb terminals that must slurp from the azure/office cloud. Enterprise focused with the ability to claim that this way there is DLP built in from your security risks (employees). In a world where decision makers only need to think of the short term (cloud computing as global/general panacea), I absolutely see this strategy mixed with some 'AI' buzz words seeing traction. For retail customers, turning the Windows 11+ machine into a console-like brings further advantages.
nathants 3y ago
this is why you run hellzerg/optimizer on install and never update windows again. sigh…
ibay770 3y ago
Renaming the files fixes it, you can run them as usual.

143 points by josephcsible 3y ago

Extract from Adventures in application compatibility: The case of the jump into the middle of an instruction from nowhere by Raymond Chen. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20230324-00/?p=107966 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20230324-00/?p=10... > What happened is that we recently made changes to this internal function, and apparently those changes were enough to cause the patcher to go haywire. This is unfortunately a regular occurrence: Whenever a new build goes out, there’s a spike of Explorer crashes because all of these patchers start patching the wrong code, and Explorer starts crashing across all the systems that have these “shell enhancement” programs installed. If you’re really unlucky, their rogue patch crashes something in the Explorer startup path, and users finds themselves stuck with an unusable machine due to Explorer crash loops. I'm all for blaming Microsoft for all the world's ills, but I'd be inclined to assume good faith on this one.

wiseowise 3y ago
> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
fake-name 3y ago
I'd be more sympathetic if microsoft didn't keep making everything worse in each new version of windows since W7.
readthenotes1 3y ago
That doesn't jibe with the fix being just simply to rename the executables. If they actually were flawed, renaming them wouldn't remove the flaw...
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  How do you know renaming them removes the flaw? All we know is that Taras Buria (or their sources) didn't encounter any crashes when they tried it, but not all correctness bugs are immediately obvious.
josephcsible 3y ago
From that same post: > The interesting thing here was how the program decided where to install its patches, and in particular how it managed to patch an function that was never exported or stored in a vtable: It found the function by contacting the Microsoft symbol server to get the names of all the functions in Explorer and their addresses! I don't think anyone would make a program do hacky binary patching like that just for fun. Presumably, they did it that way because Microsoft doesn't offer any reasonable way to accomplish the same functionality. If enough people used the hacky binary patch that it produced a noticeable spike in crashes, then I do blame Microsoft for making it necessary in the first place.
- parineum 3y ago
  Frankly, if you want to customize windows, write your own shell instead patching a closed source binary. At the very least, crc before you patch.
usrusr 3y ago
Yet the root cause is Microsoft breaking compatibility with user expectations. That program their computer-savvy nephew installed for them? It was installed because Microsoft decided that it would be fine for aunty to re-learn everything. Likely because everybody with a say on the design team is using Macs.
mintplant 3y ago
Okay, then maybe they could stop messing things up instead of blaming their users? I would love to not have to run a third-party patcher to put my taskbar at the top of the screen where I've had it for a decade and a half.
MikusR 3y ago
Even the main picture in the article shows the error message that clearly states: "A new version might be available"
- josephcsible 3y ago
  If they're blocking these programs by the name of the .exe file, then wouldn't a new version still be blocked?
fieryskiff12 3y ago
and from my experience, explorer can go haywire with certain file types (eg.: Opus) and merely sleeping and starting the machine again, after a couple of uses. And some windows machines from the windows 7 era can freeze program by program after some days just being on. On windows 10 you can replicate it by just pulling outages until you see this effect, or someing worse.
- FdbkHb 3y ago
  The opus issue is truly unforgivable. The only way to reasonably browse folders that contain opus files for me has been to change the view to a list type, without any metadata detail, then go to the options in explorer to apply that view to all folders of the same type (explorer will automatically pick a set of configurations that changes depending on file type contained in a folder. In this case, it's the "music" type if it detects a majority of audio files). The issue is caused by the metadata parser and since it doesn't get prompted if you don't use a detailed column view you don't hit the issue that way. Of course, this represents a loss in functionality since you won't be able to sort things by metadata columns like artists/composer/album title etc.

trevortheblack 3y ago

I'm unfamiliar with the majority of these customization apps as I remain on Windows 10. Are the two apps mentioned (ExplorerPatch and StartAllBack) the most common user tweaking utilities atm?

alok-g 3y ago
For taskbar. Many other utilities are there. Most are normal apps. Some tweak registry. Taskbar replacement uses deeper tweaks, hence the claim that they are creating security issues.

HlessClaudesman 3y ago

Not being able to customise my environment is a dealbreaker for me. I will be converting my day to day machine to Linux rather than being nagged into a user hostile OS upgrade. Clearly Microsoft has given up on powerusers, the people who notice and sometimes fix flaws in their monolith. Seems shortsighted.

wepple 3y ago
What kept you on their platform this long if you don’t mind my asking?
- ryanjshaw 3y ago
  Not OP, but in my case it's Visual Studio. It's just the best IDE for me, and I have literally decades of muscle memory using it. I first tried Linux sometime in the late 90s, and this might finally be the year I switch over. I do everything else in a Linux VM now, may as well run Linux as host and Windows as a VM.
  - cinntaile 3y ago
    You can use Visual Studio on Linux, I would assume you can configure it to use the same hotkeys as on Windows but I'm not sure.
    - iforgotpassword 3y ago
      Isn't that just vscode, that ugly abomination that I've given up trying to configure in a reasonable fashion after like 5 minutes every time I tried it out again? Anyways, I'm on jetbrains these days and never looked back.
      - ryanjshaw 3y ago
        Yes, you're right, it's VS Code they're referring to and it's not the same thing. I tried JetBrains Rider and stopped using it after the console window didn't auto scroll as I logged stuff into it - I don't know how something so basic doesn't work properly. I should probably try again, as so many people recommend it that I can only assume I did something wrong to mess up the console. (Edited, I originally misunderstood your comment)

iAkashPaul 3y ago

Expecting this to be continuously possible on a proprietary OS is a lost cause. Even the LLM world has practically mirrored this.

izacus 3y ago
It was possible for literal decades, what are you going on about?
- iAkashPaul 3y ago
  It was also possible to install an OS without needing to create an account.

danparsonson 3y ago

Windows? Oh I'd forgotten about that giggles behind Linux desktop

Krasnol 3y ago
You've forgotten about the most popular OS on this planet? I wouldn't take an OS recommendation from a person who happened to forget about that.
- blooalien 3y ago
  > "You've forgotten about the most popular OS on this planet?" Android? That's Linux-based.
- danparsonson 3y ago
  Sorry to have offended you - it was intended in humour as I have switched from using Windows as a daily driver and now I'm happily using Fedora. But don't worry, you can continue to use whatever you prefer.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    You did not offend me...you've posted one of the most annoying memes on internet forums and communities. It stopped being funny many years ago. Especially on Windows topics, it only displays an attitude of ignorance while simultaneously derailing any relevant discussion.
    - danparsonson 3y ago
      Ah. Well in that case I'm sorry for whatever is eating at you, because it surely isn't just a random internet person gloating about their choice of operating system. I wish you a better day, truly.

snailmailman 3y ago

I’m still holding off updating to windows 11 as it still doesn’t have feature parity with windows 10. The biggest one was the option to not merge apps in the taskbar down to one icon, and the option to show titles. They finally brought that feature to 11, but apparently the smaller taskbar is gone too? The only option was a larger one that always takes up much more space. I like it to show all the time, so I’d prefer a thinner taskbar. Sure there are these hacky third party apps, but it’s not native. I don’t understand why they took all these power-user features away. As far as I know you can’t put the taskbar on the side or top edges of the screen either.

MikusR 3y ago
They did not take them away. They decided not to add them. Windows 11 is a result of taking Windows 10, adding arbitrary cpu limitation to it, and bolting on a bunch of crap from the cancelled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10X
archerx 3y ago
I don’t know what microsoft is thinking, there is no real reason to use windows 11, it is a downgrade in a lot of ways. At least windows 10 held directx12 hostage as an incentive to upgrade. Its funny, everytime I boot up one of my systems that still has windows 7 installed it feels so nice, even better than 10 much less 11. I think microsoft is playing a dangerous game with messing around with windows like this, it could lead to a domino effect causing a mass exodus of users. Google is going through the same thing now, it was the king of search but now search sucks and I and my friends are using other search engines more and moving away from google tools. I don’t even remember the last time I used gmail.
- zelphirkalt 3y ago
  Yes, they are losing users over this. Although I have also heard of technologically capable people running into having their system auto-upgraded somehow and now using 11. Don't ask me how in the world they accept this. If that happened to me, I would reinstall the previous OS, even out of principle alone. And then MS seems to think they are doing any better with their online office suite. Well no, there are many people, who even want to quit their jobs, because of having to use that shit and how dystopian bad it is. MS losing more reputation there as well. I feel there is a notion now, that MS is simply no longer able to make any quality software product. They got VSCode, but that will be enshittified before long as well.

Krasnol 3y ago

> Like in the case of StartAllBack, you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else. If you want to upgrade to a newer build, delete the app, update your system, and then launch it using a renamed executable. This is ridiculous. I assume they just want to prevent average Joanne to use the tool, but she wouldn't do it either way or even get the idea to look for it. I mean...there are still people out there browsing the internet without UBlock. So what's the point?

jwrallie 3y ago
I’m not on windows 11 but I wonder if you could rename a different executable and get it blocked in the same way?
- Krasnol 3y ago
  The "solution" is so stupid, this might actually work. Don't have it though too.
FdbkHb 3y ago
>So what's the point? The point is if it breaks after an update you have to get into windows safe mode to unbreak your system if ExplorerPatcher causes an explorer crash loop (which it did in the past after windows updates ran). Even not-too-average Joe might get stumped by this and not immediately know what to do. The process of getting into safe mode is very cumbersome in itself if you need to do it from a system that boots into the desktop without any issue (windows doesn't consider the explorer crashing infinitely to be an issue): you need to forcefully shut down your computer three times /during the boot process of windows/ so that windows thinks "there's an issue" and gets you into the Recovery mode. It's not like during Windows 7 and older releases where you only needed to press the F8 key to get a menu for safe mode boot. Anything that forces you to attempt to get into safe mode to fix is thoroughly undesirable and unfun to experience.

Pilottwave 3y ago

I just want some basic functions that were present in all previous Windows versions. Classic start bar in a vertical position on the second screen only. hear my prayers Microsoft

dave7 3y ago

I expect this will be resolved with an update quickly, but ExplorerPatcher is wonderful and absolutely key to my enjoyment of Windows 11.

withinrafael 3y ago

There are plenty of reasons to skewer Microsoft, but this isn't one of them. Microsoft isn't blocking all customization apps here, of course. They're blocking known [1][2] unreliable, poorly written, high crash rate software that is extremely sensitive to OS changes, hotfixes, and/or upgrades due to the nature of the software (e.g. hooking functions, patching memory, etc). The block is geared towards a specific revision of the software. The authors will just need to fix the bugs, rev the executable version, and they're good to go. Again. [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/resolved-issues-windows-11-22h2#3029msgdesc https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/release-health/res... [2] https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/issues https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/issues

Havoc 3y ago
If they offered decent in house customisability then people wouldn’t need to resort to unreliable 3rd party solutions. Why can’t I have a vertical taskbar? Is that really beyond the combined technical ability of a three trillion corp? Obviously not so it’s a conscious choice to not give users options and control
eviks 3y ago
The other alternative to blocking is, of course, to offer good UI with robust customization capabilities so others could change "the nature of " their "software" to something more simple and less crash-prone
anal_reactor 3y ago
> They're blocking known [1][2] unreliable, poorly written, high crash rate software that is extremely sensitive to OS changes, hotfixes, and/or upgrades due to the nature of the software (e.g. hooking functions, patching memory, etc). That people still somehow prefer over native Windows. Makes you realize how bad Windows actually is.
josephcsible 3y ago
Is there any evidence that the software is actually poorly written? Isn't the only reason they use undocumented/unstable hacks that Microsoft refuses to provide a documented or stable way of doing what they want to do?

alok-g 3y ago

This is a deal breaker for me too. I updated to Windows 11 only once I found ExplorerPatcher. Were it not for sizeable investments in Windows-specific apps, I would have moved away. I am currently using: * ExplorerPatcher (replace taskbar) * OpenShell (replace start menu) * ProcessExplorer (replace task manager) * XYPlorer (replace file manager) * Utilities like Notepad++, Paint.net * Winsplit Revolution (Window management) * BatteryCare (Power management) * USBSafelyRemove (USB device management) * Etc.

Krasnol 3y ago
The solution is in the article: you just have to rename the exe.
- alok-g 3y ago
  Yes, I read that. Solution for the time being ... And hopefully though updates to the tools with regards to the security issues by itself keeps it all good.
simooooo 3y ago
There is no deal, you’re effectively modding an os in unintended ways
- xeonmc 3y ago
  He is altering the deal. Pray that he don't alter it any further.
- alok-g 3y ago
  I agree. The very reason why those tools exist though is because there's a sizeable enough demand. What's under question is that 'unintention', all the more so when features are being removed, without leaving some settings in for power users. Some user experience changes seem backward steps.
- chmod775 3y ago
  Maybe I'm too old, but since when is simply using another software as opposed to built-ins considered modding? Most of these seem like replacements to me. If doing that little is now considered "modding" a desktop OS, we've fucked up somewhere. Even phone OSes like Android let you download replacements of built-ins (such as another launcher, file manager, photo app) right from their app store.

maxglute 3y ago

It's really annoying to see microsoft spend 100s of billions on AI and not have side aligned task bar.

appstorelottery 3y ago

It's a pity Microsoft is taking this direction, it's almost like they are completely abandoning their old user base. I feel that they should be doing the opposite of what Apple is doing - remove telemetry and ads, perhaps charge for a "developer" version of the OS, encourage independent software development and help with discovery (i.e. give away free code-signing keys)... I moved away from Windows as my desktop in 2002 and opted for Apple, and if MS changed their direction - at least for me as a developer - I would embrace "switching back". I'm completely sick of what Apple is doing, and yet aside from open source - where is the large-scale commercial competition that's screaming "we are the opposite of Apple."? I can only speak for myself, however I would be the hugest fanboy for Microsoft if they showed some leadership and actually gave me what I wanted... Microsoft built its business on developers - some people want to customise their UI - what is the compelling argument to marginalise this minority?

microtonal 3y ago
What is Apple doing? macOS doesn’t seem to have changed much in the last few versions, which is great, because it’s a mature OS. macOS had been completely uneventful for me the last few years and recovered well from the terrible Mojave/Catalina days with the slow overheating Intel MacBooks.
- appstorelottery 3y ago
  I suppose I'm talking about how they continue to lock-down the os, in combination with their App-store. For example, hooking into the kernel is now very difficult - apps like Little Snitch running on Sonoma have a much harder job. Apple has wholesale telemetry going on that nobody seems to talk about. Apple have very little commitment to backwards compatibility, which is something that Microsoft took very seriously. In terms of GUI, look at what Apple did with the settings menu - it's pretty horrible IMHO - however Microsoft still has the old Control Panel for users that have grown up with it. Distributing an app for OSX outside of the App Store is painful, no cert - the OS just won't run it, it requires diving into the settings menu and forcing it to run - in more extreme cases it requires command-line intervention to force it to run the application... so on and so on... It's just a trend that makes me unhappy as a developer. Contrast this with the "old" Apple in 2005/6, I could write a game, put it up for download as a DMG file - and even post it to Apple's website for help with promotion and discovery! There were plenty of 3rd party payment solutions available, Apple didn't take a 30% cut. What they were back in the day is actually helpful.

Springtime 3y ago

Microsoft still haven't implemented a native vertical taskbar after all the years of it being in the top voted[1] request (part of the request to move to any side of the screen) and the fact it's been part of Windows for like 15 years. It's a dealbreaker tbh. Third-party tools that restored the W10 taskbar in W11 allowed users to continue having a taskbar that's usable for them yet the latest W11 betas show they're removing that legacy code. It'd be fine if they were replacing it with an equivalent but they're not. [1] https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-taskbar-is-the-most-requested-feature-on-feedback-hub/ https://www.neowin.net/news/ability-to-move-the-windows-11-t...

jiggawatts 3y ago
It's because the Windows 11 UI was designed by people who've never used anything other that an Apple Mac. Yes, Microsoft hires employees with zero Windows experience to design their operating system. That's why the Windows 11 taskbar has the icons centred -- because Apple OSX does too. That's why there's no way to drag the taskbar around -- because Apple OSX doesn't allow this either. Etc...
- supernes 3y ago
  You can move the Dock to the side of the screen and in fact many people do. What's the excuse for not copying that functionality?
  - out-of-ideas 3y ago
    this assumes the programmer knows how to change app settings; ive seen many a great programmers know quite little about the actual apps they install (or comes with) and use; dont even get me started about folks who "program" but simply just edit a file and dont use the actual app to test things (and instead rely on build-systems) - strange i must say, but it happens so much im not surprised by it, just forever saddened
    - supernes 3y ago

bitwize 3y ago

Microsoft gonna Microsoft. It's to be expected that they try to shape user behavior to what they want with scary messages about "security and performance". Wait till they do the same with e.g. non-Edge browsers.

Havoc 3y ago

If gaming anticheat and media DRM worked on Linux I’d be so gone

supernes 3y ago
Widevine kind of works on Linux IIRC, but hardware accelerated VP9 decode is a huge issue still. It was fine for a while, then Google broke support in Chromium and made it work only in their ecosystem (ChromeOS).
- Havoc 3y ago
  >Widevine kind of works on Linux IIRC Haven't looked at it in a while, but last I did it "worked". Resolution on netflix ends up being fine - 1080p - but I couldn't help shake the feeling that its worse. ...check bitrates and sure enough...less than half. Never worked out why, but that's a bit of a show stopper when combined with no online shooters.
  - supernes 3y ago
    Not the first time something like this has happened. You can try lying about your User Agent next time, it could work! https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/07/microsofts-xcloud-game-streaming-looks-worse-on-linux-than-windows/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/07/microsofts-xcloud-gam...

TLLtchvL8KZ 3y ago

I'm currently sitting on Windows 10 LTSC IoT and refuse to move. I am now planning, because my laptop is a little old now, to purchase an M3 iMac in a few months or at the end of the year. I've tried 11 a few times. I do not like it, I do not like the look of it and most of all I absolutely HATE that I cannot have the taskbar on the left hand side of the screen.

Ringz 3y ago
Switched to MacOS 10 years ago. Never looked back. And I started with DOS, teached WindowsNT on admin level and kept my Windows installations “alive” through fiddling with the registry (while everyone reinstalled it). Nowadays I live more and more in the terminal…

hans_castorp 3y ago

It's like they are actively trying to force users to switch to something different.

Dwedit 3y ago

I'm already being extremely cautious with Windows 11 updates. This includes doing a full disk image backup before installing them. I don't want to get that one special update that breaks ExplorerPatcher, or another update that denies Local Accounts. So I have all automatic updating blocked, and done in such a way that I can revert back if any important features broke. In the meantime, is this update that's being named in the article actively going out to people who aren't beta testers? Maybe I'll do my 'final' update for a while soon as long as ExplorerPatcher continues to work.

thyrox 3y ago

Guess it's time to jump to macOS finally. I've always wanted to try that but due to prohibitive costs never did. But with more and more Windows shenanigans I guess it's time to bite the bullet and make the switch .

ktosobcy 3y ago
as someone with about 15y exclusive (and then on and off basis) windows experience and then 10y of mac experience I'm finally contemplating moving to Linux... before I moved to mac I already tried to use open source, multi platform apps (libre office, thunderbird for example) so the switch was relatively painless. And I also stopped playing that many games (age and mac limitations). I also use a lot of Linux (mostly servers and mac shell) and got steam deck recently and oh gosh it's so nice - everything just works, you can run virtually any game and it's not so imposing as windows or mac
teo_zero 3y ago
I don't think the right solution for feeling hostage of a proprietary OS is to switch to another proprietary OS.

eviks 3y ago

> you can bypass the block by simply renaming the executable to something else what a theater!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

userbinator 3y ago

It's worth reminding yourself that there are people at MS actively working to make your lives worse. I'm curious how they feel about implementing such things --- or, when they initially decided to come up with the idea of rewriting the taskbar and removing a bunch of features, was there no opposition from the employees who clearly use Windows themselves? No power users work at MS? I wonder how long it'll be before someone comes out with a "distro" that combines the Windows 11 kernel with the Windows 2000/XP userland. WinPE 11 exists, and it actually has some bits of UI that still look like Win7.

Log_out_ 3y ago
Wouldn't wonder if there is a ms internal bullshit free win distro.
- userbinator 3y ago
  I doubt it, based on what some MS employees have commented here in the past.

krimskrams 3y ago

After having used Windows for over 20 years (XP to 10), I decided to switch to Linux a year and a half ago and I'm happy for it. The requirement for a Microsoft Account and nonsensical UI changes requiring more clicks to reach the settings I want was annoying but not a deal breaker at first. Microsoft has also been trying to make Windows more like MacOS, or a mobile tablet, since Windows 8 which I don't like. What really made me worry about the future of the Windows ecosystem is the increasing amount of telemetry and Microsoft's endless attempts at trying to monetise every part of the system at the expense of my user experience, even if I paid for a license. Making the base OS usable by disabling telemetry (and Cortana) hidden away in the settings has become a hassle. The UX dark patterns trying to make me switch from Firefox to Edge has become tiring for me. Them experimenting with ads in the file system, even if it was an experimental feature that was "never meant" for public release, made me wonder how far they were willing to push it in future Windows iterations, so I made the switch. Edit: Worth mentioning that I switched to Fedora XFCE and I stuck with it because it doesn't get in the way of my workflow. I also noticed that it doesn't use as much background resources as W10 which is great.

marginalia_nu 3y ago
I don't think it's so much Linux getting better as Windows getting worse. Like even beyond having ads in the start menu and having the default browser open up to a gigantic chumbox, a lot of the things Linux was historically getting crap for like the inconsistent UI elements; that stuff is so much worse on Windows now. Running KDE apps in Gnome or vice versa looks significantly more visually consistent than running Windows apps in Windows.
- snapplebobapple 3y ago
  Go boot up and use a vm with kde3 then kde4 then kde5 then kde6 and i think you will rescind your claim. Its night and day better over time. I suspect even gnome has improved but i dont have the experience with it so i cant authoritatively comment.
  - commoner 3y ago

NKosmatos 3y ago

Another indication that the soul searching and decay inside Microsoft is doing its thing (in cycles). It’s a pity seeing a multibillion company not focusing on its core values. HN readers of a certain age, will for sure remember Windows 8, Windows Vista and Windows Me :-) Windows 11 feels the same for me, and is the reason why it’s not installed in any of my PCs. Mind you, it’s not that macOS is in a better situation, it’s following the same trajectory for some years now. This is what happens when a big and established company gets tired and starts loosing its soul (see Boing).

zb3 3y ago

Windows = Adware

kyriakos 3y ago

I think this is a sensationalist article. The unsupported software are blocked on a pre release version of Windows, this is not a final release to consumers. It's very likely to be because some underlying OS changes break these tools which either will be fixed by the authors or by Microsoft before release.

bastard_op 3y ago

I'd love to know why Microsoft takes this sort of passive aggressive breaking of applications to try to change and fix their obviously sub-par UI in Windows 11, trying to force users to accept and adapt to it, vs improving it by putting it back to what it was a built-in option, and now blocking software to do so. It's like someone there takes public hatred of their changes personally as an affront, and insists users should just deal with it and the crappy UI changes everyone hates. It is like the stink of Steve Ballmer never left. I use Linux for everything desktop for almost 20 years now, but keep a windoze vm for Visio, Project, or random other windoze-only crap, and windows 11 just looks grating to even consider. As most do historically, I skip every other windoze version, it has literally added nothing I need since windows xp, and would continue to use it if I could get OS security patches still as a runtime environment for the few mentioned applications. For the little I do use it, ie. basic navigation and launching apps in the task bar, Microsoft almost ruins what I do have to habitually since XP. I never wanted or needed anything added in 7, 8, 10, or 11.

AwaAwa 3y ago

I think Microsoft's long term vision is to turn all personal computing machines into dumb terminals that must slurp from the azure/office cloud. Enterprise focused with the ability to claim that this way there is DLP built in from your security risks (employees). In a world where decision makers only need to think of the short term (cloud computing as global/general panacea), I absolutely see this strategy mixed with some 'AI' buzz words seeing traction. For retail customers, turning the Windows 11+ machine into a console-like brings further advantages.

nathants 3y ago

this is why you run hellzerg/optimizer on install and never update windows again. sigh…

ibay770 3y ago

Renaming the files fixes it, you can run them as usual.