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I built the best site out there for playing magic the gathering online. It's way better than any other available option. I've never shared it with the magic co

I built the best site out there for playing magic the gathering online. It's way better than any other available option. I've never shared it with the magic community because I think wizards of the coast would just send me a cease and desist, so three years of work is just sitting idle. I'm still not sure how I feel about it.

tgittos 3y ago
I started building a Magic based data science tool for 6 months before coming to the same inevitable conclusion. It sits in a Github private repo rotting away.
smokel 3y ago
Have you tried contacting them to see if they are interested in using it to their advantage as well?
- brianwawok 3y ago
  They already paid millions to develop and sell another 2 versions of this. No way they want OPs,
  - HenryBemis 3y ago
    At best they will bully anyone who made anything to hand it over to them (for free "or else"), and then scavenge on it in case they see anything they like for future 'features'.
saulpw 3y ago
At least make them send you the C&D! And you can get some attention for your hard work in the weeks/months before they do. Who knows what it will lead to?
sph 3y ago
Go out with a bang. Release it, enjoy your 15 minutes in the spotlight, and when the lawyers come a-knocking, shut it down. Or make it open source and let the community take the wheel and the responsibility. You never know what opportunities this adventure might bring, but certainly more than just keeping it on your hard drive. Go for it mate.
- windowshopping 3y ago
  I may indeed do this. There is an outstanding issue I have to address that I've never quite worked up the motivation to deal with: Heroku restarts their servers once every 24 hours with only thirty seconds' warning. Since the games are in-memory, this of course kicks everyone out of whatever games they may be in the middle of. I guess the solution is to have the games be on Redis instead of in-memory? I'm a bit more front-end oriented so I was bewildered to learn this was how it worked in the first place and I'm not 100% confident in my solution.
  - jryb 3y ago
    Is using a host that doesn't do this not a possibility?
    - windowshopping 3y ago
      It seems they all do, though. Digital ocean was the same.
      - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
        Any decent VPS provider (including DigitalOcean, unless they’ve changed anything) definitely doesn’t do this.
        windowshopping 3y ago
        Maybe you're right, I may be mistaken. Perhaps I should migrate to DO.
        Tijdreiziger 3y ago
        Actually, I should qualify this. If you use a PaaS (platform as a service, e.g. Heroku, DO App Platform, AWS EB), they might assume your app to be stateless and do things like restart it at will. If you use a VPS (virtual private server, e.g. DO Droplet, AWS EC2), this certainly shouldn’t happen, but of course it requires some Linux skills to maintain your VPS. So it’s basically a trade-off between engineering your app to fit a PaaS or hand-managing your VMs (though the latter is usually the cheaper option).
ragnese 3y ago
Off topic, but I recently looked in to playing MtG again because my son expressed interest. But, I was a bit taken aback by how different the environment is. I last played when they still had numbered "base sets", e.g., "9th Edition", and then rotating "blocks" of three smaller-but-more-advanced sets. I was assuming I would go in and buy a couple of starter decks from the most recent numbered "edition" to start teaching him, but it appears that they don't do this anymore, and everything I saw was focused around the "Commander" format, which has even more mechanics and rules. The game was already complex enough that I was worried about teaching it to someone new (Plus, the commander mechanic didn't appeal to me, personally, anyway). Is there no longer the concept of a "simple base set" with just the basic mechanics? Or is everything just theme-heavy sets now?
- clbrmbr 3y ago
  I’ve been playing with my son, but using my shoebox full of old cards, many with an “IV” logo so must have been around 4e that I was playing back in the day. The game is complex, but a good intellectual challenge for a bright 6yo reader.
  - tiltowait 3y ago
    Probably VI; 4th edition didn't have a set symbol.
    - hnfong 3y ago
      Right. Also, FWIW, 5th edition also didn't have a set symbol, but the "Visions" set was released at around the same time and had a "V" symbol... (I only realized how confusing it was after 27 years lol...
      - hhshhhhjjjd 3y ago
        Alpha beta unlimited revised Arabian nights 4th edition ice age mirage etc etc. I'm sure that's all wrong but I used to know it by heart. I keep my cards in old motherboard boxes !
darepublic 3y ago
Better to go for it then completely shelve it would think. You could also r skin it in some fashion, like make it more generic and have users provide their own decks (which happen to be MTG) etc
kej 3y ago
Just brainstorming, but would it be possible to pull out the MTG-specific portions and make it just an online card game framework where people can make their own cards and rules? If people choose to use it to copy MTG that's on them (see Tabletop Simulator, for example) but they might also use it to create their own new games.
- mtrpcic 3y ago
  The challenge is that the level of complexity with rules interactions in MtG is absolutely enormous, especially if you want to allow the freeform format, which allows all sets and cards. Note: You can see all the rules here: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Comprehensive_Rules https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Comprehensive_Rules
  - windowshopping 3y ago
    Oh I didn't implement a rules engine, that would be impractical. It's a freeform platform that gives you all the tools needed to use every mechanic in the game, but it's up to you to actually follow the rules. No different from playing in person with real cards. It's sort of like a drag and drop sandbox with a lot of extra features around the edges. It's a vastly improved version of Untap.in.
    - zzo38computer 3y ago
      If you do not implement the actual rules, then it can probably be made to support many other kind of card games too. However, I would be interested to have a FOSS rule engine of Magic: the Gathering, preferably written in C, and licensed by AGPL3 or some compatible license. But, unfortunately there is no official FOSS implementation; if there was (at least of the rule engine; not necessarily the UI) (especially if literate programming is used for the rule engine), I think that it would be better since the rules can be made more precise. I would want to ensure that the rule engine has no pictures at all (you can easily download pictures separately if you want them, anyways; so the rule engine doesn't need them and shouldn't have them).
- 3y ago
mandmandam 3y ago
There's probably someone out there with a great card game that is just lacking a site... Could you adapt the thing to suit another card game?
MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
OK listen up dude. > I built the best site out there for playing magic the gathering online. No you didn't! You built the best site out there for playing trading card games. It just so happens that it's very easy to point to your own local card/rule sets, share them with peers, and play together online. And if the cards/rules being used by the clients happen to be MTG cards/rules, oh well! That's out of your hands. Seriously, if you want to release this you only need to make it a) generic out of the box, and b) completely customizable at the client level. Of course this would never support true competitive play since you can never trust the client, but it would still be super fun for playing against people you trust. And as a bonus you could support user-created cards and rules.
- windowshopping 3y ago
  The problem as I see it is loading the card data and imagery. I use scryfall for this, and it's heavily integrated into the site in several ways. I don't see how I can get around that. My site is coded specifically to work with their API. I can't really make it so you can "swap it out" for a different game's API.
  - nextaccountic 3y ago
    Cockatrice also loads card images and card text likely from the same source
- Kharacternyk 3y ago
  By being generic and customizable it will have the potential to become a great new game in its own right. Let the community begin with something they already know and love (MtG) and watch them coming up with cool new stuff.
- the_jeremy 3y ago
  If it doesn't handle the card rules automatically for you, then it's way worse than MTG Arena or MTGO. I've played with free MTG software (cockatrice) and it's not close to the same thing, even though it has all the art and buttons for doing all the effects manually (I use this shortcut to draw 3 cards, this shortcut to put 2 back, this shortcut to exile someone's graveyard, etc). If they really built the best site for playing MTG, even over paid versions, then there's no real way to hide the fact that it's magic-specific.
Marthinwurer 3y ago
There are several projects that implement the MTG engine and are in active use. Forge and Xmage are the main ones. You could ask their developers how they avoid getting C&D'ed. It's definitely doable and your work doesn't have to be in vain.
hhh 3y ago
Do what every other VC firm does, do it and don’t care. When the C&D comes, comply. Let users cause an uproar for you.
nextaccountic 3y ago
Please release it anonymously. I beg you
nextaccountic 3y ago
Also, how come Wizards don't go after Cockatrice, but would go after your site?
- windowshopping 3y ago
  They did go after Cockatrice. The original developer had to step away. It's unclear what the current situation is with whoever stepped up to take it over.
roland35 3y ago
Maybe adapt it to your own game? Just look how Balatro blew up!
TimJRobinson 3y ago
Cockatrice has been around for a while without getting a C&D. They separate the game client from the card images to get around it. Could do similar.
Biganon 3y ago
I made a website about Tintin (the Belgian comic) where you can search any cell from any album by its text content. There's also a game where you have to find which album a cell comes from. The owners of the intellectual property wrote to me and just asked that I stop using the domain name I was using (which was the name of a character) and that every cell contains a reference to them ("Tintin is copyrighted to blah blah blah"). I obliged and haven't heard of them ever since.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  Great blistering barnacles! That's quite a story. Would you mind posting the link to your site here? I'm very curious to see it.
  - Biganon 3y ago
    Sure, it's https://www.ectoplasme.com/ https://www.ectoplasme.com/ (It's in French, should have mentioned that)
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      That's really impressive! I don't know enough French yet to really be able to use it, but the 'quiz without words' should still be relevant :) Maybe consider posting your site as a 'Show HN' at some point?
    - roydivision 3y ago
      Superbe site, je l'aime beaucoup. Quel boulot.
dhosek 3y ago
Kind of reminds me of how my brother built a website for playing scrabble online, but because of the obvious trademark/copyright issues, he made it a private site behind an invite-only login. I don’t know if it’s still running, but because he was working on and off writing for TV at the time and doing tech support for a lot of Hollywood types, a lot of the users were Hollywood folks including a number of names of people that you’d recognize.

tgittos 3y ago

I started building a Magic based data science tool for 6 months before coming to the same inevitable conclusion. It sits in a Github private repo rotting away.

smokel 3y ago

Have you tried contacting them to see if they are interested in using it to their advantage as well?

brianwawok 3y ago
They already paid millions to develop and sell another 2 versions of this. No way they want OPs,
- HenryBemis 3y ago
  At best they will bully anyone who made anything to hand it over to them (for free "or else"), and then scavenge on it in case they see anything they like for future 'features'.

saulpw 3y ago

At least make them send you the C&D! And you can get some attention for your hard work in the weeks/months before they do. Who knows what it will lead to?

sph 3y ago

Go out with a bang. Release it, enjoy your 15 minutes in the spotlight, and when the lawyers come a-knocking, shut it down. Or make it open source and let the community take the wheel and the responsibility. You never know what opportunities this adventure might bring, but certainly more than just keeping it on your hard drive. Go for it mate.

windowshopping 3y ago
I may indeed do this. There is an outstanding issue I have to address that I've never quite worked up the motivation to deal with: Heroku restarts their servers once every 24 hours with only thirty seconds' warning. Since the games are in-memory, this of course kicks everyone out of whatever games they may be in the middle of. I guess the solution is to have the games be on Redis instead of in-memory? I'm a bit more front-end oriented so I was bewildered to learn this was how it worked in the first place and I'm not 100% confident in my solution.
- jryb 3y ago
  Is using a host that doesn't do this not a possibility?
  - windowshopping 3y ago
    It seems they all do, though. Digital ocean was the same.
    - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
      Any decent VPS provider (including DigitalOcean, unless they’ve changed anything) definitely doesn’t do this.
      - windowshopping 3y ago
        Maybe you're right, I may be mistaken. Perhaps I should migrate to DO.
        Tijdreiziger 3y ago
        Actually, I should qualify this. If you use a PaaS (platform as a service, e.g. Heroku, DO App Platform, AWS EB), they might assume your app to be stateless and do things like restart it at will. If you use a VPS (virtual private server, e.g. DO Droplet, AWS EC2), this certainly shouldn’t happen, but of course it requires some Linux skills to maintain your VPS. So it’s basically a trade-off between engineering your app to fit a PaaS or hand-managing your VMs (though the latter is usually the cheaper option).

ragnese 3y ago

Off topic, but I recently looked in to playing MtG again because my son expressed interest. But, I was a bit taken aback by how different the environment is. I last played when they still had numbered "base sets", e.g., "9th Edition", and then rotating "blocks" of three smaller-but-more-advanced sets. I was assuming I would go in and buy a couple of starter decks from the most recent numbered "edition" to start teaching him, but it appears that they don't do this anymore, and everything I saw was focused around the "Commander" format, which has even more mechanics and rules. The game was already complex enough that I was worried about teaching it to someone new (Plus, the commander mechanic didn't appeal to me, personally, anyway). Is there no longer the concept of a "simple base set" with just the basic mechanics? Or is everything just theme-heavy sets now?

clbrmbr 3y ago
I’ve been playing with my son, but using my shoebox full of old cards, many with an “IV” logo so must have been around 4e that I was playing back in the day. The game is complex, but a good intellectual challenge for a bright 6yo reader.
- tiltowait 3y ago
  Probably VI; 4th edition didn't have a set symbol.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    Right. Also, FWIW, 5th edition also didn't have a set symbol, but the "Visions" set was released at around the same time and had a "V" symbol... (I only realized how confusing it was after 27 years lol...
    - hhshhhhjjjd 3y ago
      Alpha beta unlimited revised Arabian nights 4th edition ice age mirage etc etc. I'm sure that's all wrong but I used to know it by heart. I keep my cards in old motherboard boxes !

darepublic 3y ago

Better to go for it then completely shelve it would think. You could also r skin it in some fashion, like make it more generic and have users provide their own decks (which happen to be MTG) etc

kej 3y ago

Just brainstorming, but would it be possible to pull out the MTG-specific portions and make it just an online card game framework where people can make their own cards and rules? If people choose to use it to copy MTG that's on them (see Tabletop Simulator, for example) but they might also use it to create their own new games.

mtrpcic 3y ago
The challenge is that the level of complexity with rules interactions in MtG is absolutely enormous, especially if you want to allow the freeform format, which allows all sets and cards. Note: You can see all the rules here: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Comprehensive_Rules https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Comprehensive_Rules
- windowshopping 3y ago
  Oh I didn't implement a rules engine, that would be impractical. It's a freeform platform that gives you all the tools needed to use every mechanic in the game, but it's up to you to actually follow the rules. No different from playing in person with real cards. It's sort of like a drag and drop sandbox with a lot of extra features around the edges. It's a vastly improved version of Untap.in.
  - zzo38computer 3y ago
    If you do not implement the actual rules, then it can probably be made to support many other kind of card games too. However, I would be interested to have a FOSS rule engine of Magic: the Gathering, preferably written in C, and licensed by AGPL3 or some compatible license. But, unfortunately there is no official FOSS implementation; if there was (at least of the rule engine; not necessarily the UI) (especially if literate programming is used for the rule engine), I think that it would be better since the rules can be made more precise. I would want to ensure that the rule engine has no pictures at all (you can easily download pictures separately if you want them, anyways; so the rule engine doesn't need them and shouldn't have them).
3y ago

mandmandam 3y ago

There's probably someone out there with a great card game that is just lacking a site... Could you adapt the thing to suit another card game?

MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago

OK listen up dude. > I built the best site out there for playing magic the gathering online. No you didn't! You built the best site out there for playing trading card games. It just so happens that it's very easy to point to your own local card/rule sets, share them with peers, and play together online. And if the cards/rules being used by the clients happen to be MTG cards/rules, oh well! That's out of your hands. Seriously, if you want to release this you only need to make it a) generic out of the box, and b) completely customizable at the client level. Of course this would never support true competitive play since you can never trust the client, but it would still be super fun for playing against people you trust. And as a bonus you could support user-created cards and rules.

windowshopping 3y ago
The problem as I see it is loading the card data and imagery. I use scryfall for this, and it's heavily integrated into the site in several ways. I don't see how I can get around that. My site is coded specifically to work with their API. I can't really make it so you can "swap it out" for a different game's API.
- nextaccountic 3y ago
  Cockatrice also loads card images and card text likely from the same source
Kharacternyk 3y ago
By being generic and customizable it will have the potential to become a great new game in its own right. Let the community begin with something they already know and love (MtG) and watch them coming up with cool new stuff.
the_jeremy 3y ago
If it doesn't handle the card rules automatically for you, then it's way worse than MTG Arena or MTGO. I've played with free MTG software (cockatrice) and it's not close to the same thing, even though it has all the art and buttons for doing all the effects manually (I use this shortcut to draw 3 cards, this shortcut to put 2 back, this shortcut to exile someone's graveyard, etc). If they really built the best site for playing MTG, even over paid versions, then there's no real way to hide the fact that it's magic-specific.

Marthinwurer 3y ago

There are several projects that implement the MTG engine and are in active use. Forge and Xmage are the main ones. You could ask their developers how they avoid getting C&D'ed. It's definitely doable and your work doesn't have to be in vain.

hhh 3y ago

Do what every other VC firm does, do it and don’t care. When the C&D comes, comply. Let users cause an uproar for you.

nextaccountic 3y ago

Please release it anonymously. I beg you

nextaccountic 3y ago

Also, how come Wizards don't go after Cockatrice, but would go after your site?

windowshopping 3y ago
They did go after Cockatrice. The original developer had to step away. It's unclear what the current situation is with whoever stepped up to take it over.

roland35 3y ago

Maybe adapt it to your own game? Just look how Balatro blew up!

TimJRobinson 3y ago

Cockatrice has been around for a while without getting a C&D. They separate the game client from the card images to get around it. Could do similar.

Biganon 3y ago

I made a website about Tintin (the Belgian comic) where you can search any cell from any album by its text content. There's also a game where you have to find which album a cell comes from. The owners of the intellectual property wrote to me and just asked that I stop using the domain name I was using (which was the name of a character) and that every cell contains a reference to them ("Tintin is copyrighted to blah blah blah"). I obliged and haven't heard of them ever since.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
Great blistering barnacles! That's quite a story. Would you mind posting the link to your site here? I'm very curious to see it.
- Biganon 3y ago
  Sure, it's https://www.ectoplasme.com/ https://www.ectoplasme.com/ (It's in French, should have mentioned that)
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    That's really impressive! I don't know enough French yet to really be able to use it, but the 'quiz without words' should still be relevant :) Maybe consider posting your site as a 'Show HN' at some point?
  - roydivision 3y ago
    Superbe site, je l'aime beaucoup. Quel boulot.

dhosek 3y ago

Kind of reminds me of how my brother built a website for playing scrabble online, but because of the obvious trademark/copyright issues, he made it a private site behind an invite-only login. I don’t know if it’s still running, but because he was working on and off writing for TV at the time and doing tech support for a lot of Hollywood types, a lot of the users were Hollywood folks including a number of names of people that you’d recognize.