3 ms·

The real guide to bourbon is that if you're an average person, you've been priced out of the good stuff.

mauvehaus 3y ago
If you can only enjoy the best of everything, I feel bad for you. Do I like good bourbon? Yup! Do I enjoy pedestrian stuff too? Yeah; I mean I'm not going to let my enjoyment of the best bourbon I've had spoil the fun of a cheaper bottle.
- giantg2 3y ago
  It doesn't need to be the best. Even the decent stuff has gotten overpriced. Decent mixer bourbon is like $35/bottle and the decent straight stuff tends to be about $50/bottle. The prices vary by state due to taxes and stuff of course. But $50/bottle is getting steep for many people. The off flavor bottom shelf stuff doesn't interest me - I still consider it overvalued for what you actually. An iconic example of this for Scotch would be Old Smuggler. I'd rather drink my homemade beer, wine, and mead - dirt cheap and usually good stuff.
reducesuffering 3y ago
No way. Bourbon is still very affordable. You’re getting 8/10 bourbons at Total Wine or Costco for $20 - $25 like Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey 101, Elijah Craig, Old Forester, etc. That’s the stuff even fancy NYC bars will put in a $20 cocktail. The 9/10 are still around $50.
- RajT88 3y ago
  I've been to Louisville for work / vacation a bunch of times. The "Van Winkle" stuff is not measurably better than the cheapest Knob Creek, IMO.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    In many cases it's a hype cycle. It's possible that specific years really are excellent. But it's impossible to know unless you get in at the same time it is blowing up. Once it's been hyped, it's hard to obtain, hard to live up to, and sometimes quality goes down as supply ramps up (although with aging it's not ramping up fast).
- giantg2 3y ago
  The ones you named don't seem to be 8/10 on the sites I viewed. They're also more expensive than that in most places, like 50% more (depends on state taxes). Even $50/bottle is on the expensive side for many people. Yeah, cocktail bourbons have a lower bar.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    You’re going by sites? Even so, on distiller.com, top 2% bottles like Elijah Craig Barrel Proof and JD Single Barrel Proof are 4.3 and 4.13 respectively, when Buffalo Trace is a 3.7. Of course if you want one of the best bourbons there is it’s going to be “expensive” as in $50-$60. That doesn’t mean that the average Joe can’t get a great bourbon for $25 (17 servings). That’s the same ballpark every regular Joe blows on an 18 pack of beer for a football game with friends. Only a few states have high taxes or poor competition (only gov stores) and that’s not Bourbon specific that’s just liquor in general. Ultimately, prices have gone up only because it’s so easy for the average person to get a great bottle of Eagle Rare that takes 10 years to make. The demand is there at the price point, it’s not like a hedge fund is buying up stock to hoard it.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Well you mentioned ratings, so yeah I looked up ratings on sites. Yeah, the barrel proof Elijah Craig is good stuff. The typical sale price of that is around it's MSRP - $70. The "best" bourbons are not going to be $50/bottle because the rating process ends up largely in a hype cycle and you see them going for $100+. But there are some lists of the best "obtainable" or "budget friendly" bourbons that have decent options in the $50 range. Yes, Eagle Rare 10 is a good value for a 10yo, if you can find it around the MSRP ($30). However, it's commonly going around $50. It's also worth noting that the theory is they are thinning out the barrels that are good but not great - leaving the great barrels for the longer aging lines (not sure how true that is for this line). Usually the consistency/quality is all per the place at the lower end, and I've noticed more of it in the mid level segments now too. Yeah, I get there is demand. The international market is driving a lot of that in recent years. The market is also seeing huge gains in popularity/consumption in the wealthier segments. Hedge funds might not be buying it up, but there are some people investing in bottles like there are some people doing so with wine. That's really only going to affect the top level exclusive stuff though. But if you have a suggestion of a "great" bourbon for only $25, please let me know and I will check them out. I've found plenty of good mixer bourbons at that level and a few decent bourbons whose consistency/QC was wildly different from one bottle to the next.
brendoelfrendo 3y ago
Yeah, the pricing is ridiculous. Any bottle that starts accruing accolades will either sell out or start seeing price increases. There's even a secondary market where scalpers will buy as much of the local supply as they can and resell it. I remember asking a staff member at a Specs store in Dallas if they had any Weller in stock, and he just laughed and said that any time they get a delivery there's a line outside the door before they open. He couldn't remember the last time a bottle sat on the shelf for any amount of time. This is a bottle that has an MSRP of $50, but will sell for roughly three times that.
- giantg2 3y ago
  The best way to do it today seems to be finding local distilleries. Some have tasting rooms or bars attached. You can try out their offerings to find which you like. But it's still not cheap if they're good. The local one around me is about $50-60 and is usually good stuff (batches vary more at the smaller scale). Plenty of decent stuff at the big stores for cocktails or to occasionally try something new (the tasting search and adventure are half the fun). But it's tough to justify some of the prices to try things, and it's not much better at most bars that charge you 25% of a bottle price for a single drink.
  - brendoelfrendo 3y ago
    Oh, yeah. I hardly drink at home these days, but when I did, my shelf staples were things like Old Grand Dad 114 and Wild Turkey 101. Local can be very hit-or-miss, though. Opening a distillery was a very trendy thing to do for a while after the craft beer market got saturated, and I feel like there were a lot of distilleries selling really sub-par young product because they realized they would run out of money if they waited for it to age properly. For the most part, though, I agree, especially now that it's been long enough for some solid local contenders to get their feet under them.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      That's why I especially recommend going to their tasting room/events or attached bar. On a side note, one local place sells white whiskey - aged the legal minimum of 1 day. But it was also less than 50% of the normal whiskey they sell. I got some just to try it. It is not mellow at all, but it is interesting to try it, and it mixes in many drinks just fine and makes them different.

If you can only enjoy the best of everything, I feel bad for you. Do I like good bourbon? Yup! Do I enjoy pedestrian stuff too? Yeah; I mean I'm not going to let my enjoyment of the best bourbon I've had spoil the fun of a cheaper bottle.

giantg2 3y ago
It doesn't need to be the best. Even the decent stuff has gotten overpriced. Decent mixer bourbon is like $35/bottle and the decent straight stuff tends to be about $50/bottle. The prices vary by state due to taxes and stuff of course. But $50/bottle is getting steep for many people. The off flavor bottom shelf stuff doesn't interest me - I still consider it overvalued for what you actually. An iconic example of this for Scotch would be Old Smuggler. I'd rather drink my homemade beer, wine, and mead - dirt cheap and usually good stuff.

reducesuffering 3y ago

No way. Bourbon is still very affordable. You’re getting 8/10 bourbons at Total Wine or Costco for $20 - $25 like Buffalo Trace, Wild Turkey 101, Elijah Craig, Old Forester, etc. That’s the stuff even fancy NYC bars will put in a $20 cocktail. The 9/10 are still around $50.

RajT88 3y ago
I've been to Louisville for work / vacation a bunch of times. The "Van Winkle" stuff is not measurably better than the cheapest Knob Creek, IMO.
- giantg2 3y ago
  In many cases it's a hype cycle. It's possible that specific years really are excellent. But it's impossible to know unless you get in at the same time it is blowing up. Once it's been hyped, it's hard to obtain, hard to live up to, and sometimes quality goes down as supply ramps up (although with aging it's not ramping up fast).
giantg2 3y ago
The ones you named don't seem to be 8/10 on the sites I viewed. They're also more expensive than that in most places, like 50% more (depends on state taxes). Even $50/bottle is on the expensive side for many people. Yeah, cocktail bourbons have a lower bar.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  You’re going by sites? Even so, on distiller.com, top 2% bottles like Elijah Craig Barrel Proof and JD Single Barrel Proof are 4.3 and 4.13 respectively, when Buffalo Trace is a 3.7. Of course if you want one of the best bourbons there is it’s going to be “expensive” as in $50-$60. That doesn’t mean that the average Joe can’t get a great bourbon for $25 (17 servings). That’s the same ballpark every regular Joe blows on an 18 pack of beer for a football game with friends. Only a few states have high taxes or poor competition (only gov stores) and that’s not Bourbon specific that’s just liquor in general. Ultimately, prices have gone up only because it’s so easy for the average person to get a great bottle of Eagle Rare that takes 10 years to make. The demand is there at the price point, it’s not like a hedge fund is buying up stock to hoard it.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Well you mentioned ratings, so yeah I looked up ratings on sites. Yeah, the barrel proof Elijah Craig is good stuff. The typical sale price of that is around it's MSRP - $70. The "best" bourbons are not going to be $50/bottle because the rating process ends up largely in a hype cycle and you see them going for $100+. But there are some lists of the best "obtainable" or "budget friendly" bourbons that have decent options in the $50 range. Yes, Eagle Rare 10 is a good value for a 10yo, if you can find it around the MSRP ($30). However, it's commonly going around $50. It's also worth noting that the theory is they are thinning out the barrels that are good but not great - leaving the great barrels for the longer aging lines (not sure how true that is for this line). Usually the consistency/quality is all per the place at the lower end, and I've noticed more of it in the mid level segments now too. Yeah, I get there is demand. The international market is driving a lot of that in recent years. The market is also seeing huge gains in popularity/consumption in the wealthier segments. Hedge funds might not be buying it up, but there are some people investing in bottles like there are some people doing so with wine. That's really only going to affect the top level exclusive stuff though. But if you have a suggestion of a "great" bourbon for only $25, please let me know and I will check them out. I've found plenty of good mixer bourbons at that level and a few decent bourbons whose consistency/QC was wildly different from one bottle to the next.

brendoelfrendo 3y ago

Yeah, the pricing is ridiculous. Any bottle that starts accruing accolades will either sell out or start seeing price increases. There's even a secondary market where scalpers will buy as much of the local supply as they can and resell it. I remember asking a staff member at a Specs store in Dallas if they had any Weller in stock, and he just laughed and said that any time they get a delivery there's a line outside the door before they open. He couldn't remember the last time a bottle sat on the shelf for any amount of time. This is a bottle that has an MSRP of $50, but will sell for roughly three times that.

giantg2 3y ago
The best way to do it today seems to be finding local distilleries. Some have tasting rooms or bars attached. You can try out their offerings to find which you like. But it's still not cheap if they're good. The local one around me is about $50-60 and is usually good stuff (batches vary more at the smaller scale). Plenty of decent stuff at the big stores for cocktails or to occasionally try something new (the tasting search and adventure are half the fun). But it's tough to justify some of the prices to try things, and it's not much better at most bars that charge you 25% of a bottle price for a single drink.
- brendoelfrendo 3y ago
  Oh, yeah. I hardly drink at home these days, but when I did, my shelf staples were things like Old Grand Dad 114 and Wild Turkey 101. Local can be very hit-or-miss, though. Opening a distillery was a very trendy thing to do for a while after the craft beer market got saturated, and I feel like there were a lot of distilleries selling really sub-par young product because they realized they would run out of money if they waited for it to age properly. For the most part, though, I agree, especially now that it's been long enough for some solid local contenders to get their feet under them.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    That's why I especially recommend going to their tasting room/events or attached bar. On a side note, one local place sells white whiskey - aged the legal minimum of 1 day. But it was also less than 50% of the normal whiskey they sell. I got some just to try it. It is not mellow at all, but it is interesting to try it, and it mixes in many drinks just fine and makes them different.