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The original(?) +972 article was also on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245 It was an excellent an
by ethbr1 3y ago
The original(?) +972 article was also on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39918245
It was an excellent and detailed piece on the various systems, and their use by Israel in the Gaza conflict.
>> In an unprecedented move, according to two of the sources, the army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians; in the past, the military did not authorize any “collateral damage” during assassinations of low-ranking militants.
Needs no comment and basically sums up the war.
- alchemist1e9 3y agoThe names of the systems are “The Gospel” and “Lavender”! How is it that a Jewish army is using Christian references for their AI killing systems? I don’t think that is unintentional.
- permo-w 3y agois "Lavender" a Christian reference?
- readyplayernull 3y agoLavender's history has biblical roots. It is referred to as Spikenard in the Bible. Mary used it on the infant Jesus and anointed Jesus after the crucifixion when she was preparing him for burial. So it has a "life and death" connotation which makes a lot of sense when you think of the system as a roulette for those chosen to die.
- alchemist1e9 3y agoExactly. There is no way that whomever named these systems didn’t do it intentionally. The question is why? what was the motivation?
- readyplayernull 3y agoIt's a form of ideological hand-washing, they don't want to link the killing to their own religion but it's ok to link the other well known religion. Coincidentally hand washing refers to the story in St. Matthew’s gospel, when Pontius Pilate ‘washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person’.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y agoSources? What Christ was offered in his birth was myrrh (by one of the Magi) and his body was wrapped in myrrh after his death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh#In_the_New_Testament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrrh#In_the_New_Testament). Myrrh and Lavender seem to be very different. Is there some popular association of the two (like yams with sweet potatoes)?
- alchemist1e9 3y agoA quick google search for “lavender christianity” shows many many people have associated them together, possibly with some historical or primary source inconsistencies, however it’s very obvious connected. In addition to search engines a conversation with any LLM has them immediately explain the connection. Now you might be correct there is some mis-associating from a purely academic standpoint and that actually makes it even more interesting the IDF used it as a name, considering the other name is “The Gospel”. Isn’t the message to Christians - “you’re idiots and we kill our enemies using AI systems named to make fun of you”?
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y agoI was raised Greek Orthodox and that's not a message I receive at all. I commented as above because for me there is no association between Christianity and lavender. Asking others who were also raised Greek Orthodox, lavender has no special meaning for any of us at all. To clarify, that's not from an academic standpoint, but from the point of view of tradition. Perhaps it's a Catholic or Protestant thing, but, if so, I don't know where it comes from. I used to love reading the New Testament and I really don't remember any mention of lavender at all. It could be an Old Testament thing though, so, to be fair, more Jewish than Christian. In Greek Orthodox practice the aromatic of choice is frankincense (every church smells of it because the priests burn it in long-chained incense burners that they swing wildly left and right during liturgy), and, separately, myrrh (although that's associated with death and funerals, I guess). Lavender we mainly use to keep moths off clothes, to be honest. I got small muslin-wrapped packets of it in my closet. I also am not sure why Israelis would want to send a message to Christians about an AI system used to kill mainly Muslims. I mean, in practice, the Israelis enemies are Arabs who tend to be Muslim, so why would they send a message to Christians? In any case, can you please share some of the information you found in your quick googling? I'm curious to see what people say. I had a quick look online also and couldn't really find anything specific. The wikipedia page on lavender also lists no specific relation with Christianity, as opposed e.g. for myrrh and frankincense.
- colinprince 3y ago"The Gospel" has wider connotations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_gospel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_gospel probably from the Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/εὐαγγέλιον https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/εὐαγγέλιον
- alchemist1e9 3y agoThat’s a stretch considering any Jewish person I’ve ever known would immediately associate “The Gospel” with Christianity and what officially their religion considers as a blasphemy and heresy. There is absolutely no possible way that whomever named the system wasn’t consciously linking it and invoking the religious connotation.
- zed1726 3y agoCorrect. The Jewish people think of the Gospel as "that which the masses blindly accept as true but we know internally to be false" which is apt given what they have intended to use it for.
- alchemist1e9 3y agoWhich perhaps they even expounded on by using “Lavender” which potentially is something Christians may have mis-associated with Jesus’s birth (see parallel comments on Lavender). The message to Christian’s is clear - “thanks for all the funding, you’re a bunch of fools, and we are killing our enemies in your name”
- 082349872349872 3y agoI believe the laws of war as commonly understood authorise civilian casualties insofar as they are "proportionate". 1:20 is technically a proportion, but...
- shermantanktop 3y ago> the laws of war as commonly understood There’s a whole lot of wiggle room in that phrase.
- bjornsing 3y ago1:2000000 is also a proportion. Btw, the proportionality requirement in the law of armed conflict relates civilian casualties not with military casualties but rather the military advantage gained. The military advantages of killing a single low-level Hamas combatant are rather limited, and thus the room for civilian casualties should be rather limited as well.
- ivl 3y agoProportionate in war is not about going tit-for-tat. > The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. The way it's worded is to prevent destroying civilian targets for no military gain.
- porkbeer 3y agoThats a very... charitable reading.
- NomDePlum 3y ago20:1 is a proportionality I'd find horrifying. 1:20 is unspeakable. There is no justification in the current situation in Gaza to justify anything close to the numbers quoted.
- weakfish 3y agoMore of a slaughter than a war at this point.
- klyrs 3y agoThere's one quote in that article that continues to make my blood boil: > "You don’t want to waste expensive bombs on unimportant people" This, regarding the bombing houses full of civilians, because an infantryman might have been inside. This, in a statement by somebody who is critical of the AI effort. By being more concerned at the loss of munitions; the true basis of the calculation is revealed. The IDF -- even those members who are actively critical of it -- views its enemies not as humans, but as vermin to be exterminated. This is genocide, pure and simple.
- mikrotikker 3y agoNone of what you said is the definition of a genocide.
- pierat 3y ago[dead]