5 ms·

You do realize that when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want, right?

by Repulsion9513 3y ago

actionfromafar 3y ago
But you can't make them do anything you want.
- spacecadet 3y ago
  You can, its called a tank.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Even that, can't make them do anything you want. It makes them die.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    Tanks can't go door to door on enough of the populace. If it's a law that's unpopular enough, it's not enforceable pretty much anywhere. Even less so in the US, because of the staggering number of civilian owned guns.
    - spacecadet 3y ago
      Tank go through door
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - dmoy 3y ago
        Right, but there's too many doors Tanks can go through some of the doors, especially as long as you know there isn't a basement. So if you have a small segment of a population you need to go through doors on, sure. But if it's enough of the population, then tanks don't work to enforce the laws.
        spacecadet 3y ago
        I dunno, you roll out all of the armored tank division, it doesn't have have to be 1:1...
        dmoy 3y ago
        Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks, and 80,000,000 houses (not including multi unit buildings). It doesn't scale. The military as a whole doesn't work well as a police trying to enforce laws, but even if it did, it wouldn't be the tanks. It would be door to door with infantry.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks, And 7000 IFVs, and 15,000 APCs, and 25,000 Mine Protected Vehicles, and also a bunch of fixed and rotary winged piloted and unpiloted aircraft carrying PGMs, all of which can go through specifically chosen doors, and, as with the tanks, all of which can send something through many specifically chosen doors (or windows, walls, whatever) in a fairly short period of time. Not good for arresting people, bringing them to trial, and providing due process, but that's not the only means of raising the expected cost of non-compliance with the law so as to coerce compliance.
        ben_w 3y ago
        I suspect the US army would very upset with a government that tried to use it to enforce an unpopular law. It's a volunteer force. Might simply refuse the orders as unlawful, might repeat 1861, depending on the law. I'm told "fragging" comes from the weapon of choice used by conscripts in Vietnam against unpopular commanding officers.
        spacecadet 2y ago
        I was only trying to be funny, but I agree.
        2y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 3y ago
In a system of government founded on a Constitution, those laws have to follow the Constitution (at least in an eventually-consistent way). (Or the Constitution must be amended, or a revolution has to happen; neither of the latter two are possible by a legislature acting alone.)
- Retric 3y ago
  Changing the constitution is changing the law.
- lo_zamoyski 3y ago
  You don't need a constitution for this purpose, even though a constitution can have practical benefit. And furthermore, you'd only be passing the buck by appealing to a constitution. I could just ask whether the constitution is arbitrary, and in this case, you could not appeal to anything to ground or constrain it. The ultimate ground for the written law is the moral law, such that the first is a determination of the second given the circumstances of a given jurisdiction. Note also the distinction between lex and ius.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    It’s not that you need a constitution, but rather than many democratic governments have a constitution and that must be considered in the context of “when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want”.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
Not exactly. The idea that law can be arbitrary is a severe and tyrannical perversion of the law. Human law is a circumstantial determination of the moral law (or ethical principles, if you will) and the demands of justice. Lex iniusta non est lex (an unjust law is not a law). So we are not at complete liberty to legislate arbitrarily just because we think we have the power to do so. Indeed, we run the risk of passing laws that aren't laws at all, but only have the appearance of law. Furthermore, determining the law is not the same as determining the outcome of having that law on the books. The law is permissive about many immoral behaviors, at least in part because the enforcement of laws regulating such behaviors would cause greater harm than the behavior in question. Prudential judgement among lawmakers is necessary to determine what should and should not be regulated.
- abecedarius 3y ago
  Downvoters: this is a nice nutshell statement of a thoroughly respectable thesis, relevant to the thread. I like Hayek's Law, Legislation, and Liberty for a long version, if you don't understand how it can possibly be reasonable.

You do realize that when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want, right?

actionfromafar 3y ago

But you can't make them do anything you want.

spacecadet 3y ago
You can, its called a tank.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Even that, can't make them do anything you want. It makes them die.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Tanks can't go door to door on enough of the populace. If it's a law that's unpopular enough, it's not enforceable pretty much anywhere. Even less so in the US, because of the staggering number of civilian owned guns.
  - spacecadet 3y ago
    Tank go through door
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - dmoy 3y ago
      Right, but there's too many doors Tanks can go through some of the doors, especially as long as you know there isn't a basement. So if you have a small segment of a population you need to go through doors on, sure. But if it's enough of the population, then tanks don't work to enforce the laws.
      - spacecadet 3y ago
        I dunno, you roll out all of the armored tank division, it doesn't have have to be 1:1...
        dmoy 3y ago
        Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks, and 80,000,000 houses (not including multi unit buildings). It doesn't scale. The military as a whole doesn't work well as a police trying to enforce laws, but even if it did, it wouldn't be the tanks. It would be door to door with infantry.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > Sure but there's like 5000 total tanks, And 7000 IFVs, and 15,000 APCs, and 25,000 Mine Protected Vehicles, and also a bunch of fixed and rotary winged piloted and unpiloted aircraft carrying PGMs, all of which can go through specifically chosen doors, and, as with the tanks, all of which can send something through many specifically chosen doors (or windows, walls, whatever) in a fairly short period of time. Not good for arresting people, bringing them to trial, and providing due process, but that's not the only means of raising the expected cost of non-compliance with the law so as to coerce compliance.
        ben_w 3y ago
        I suspect the US army would very upset with a government that tried to use it to enforce an unpopular law. It's a volunteer force. Might simply refuse the orders as unlawful, might repeat 1861, depending on the law. I'm told "fragging" comes from the weapon of choice used by conscripts in Vietnam against unpopular commanding officers.
        spacecadet 2y ago
        I was only trying to be funny, but I agree.
        2y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sokoloff 3y ago

In a system of government founded on a Constitution, those laws have to follow the Constitution (at least in an eventually-consistent way). (Or the Constitution must be amended, or a revolution has to happen; neither of the latter two are possible by a legislature acting alone.)

Retric 3y ago
Changing the constitution is changing the law.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
You don't need a constitution for this purpose, even though a constitution can have practical benefit. And furthermore, you'd only be passing the buck by appealing to a constitution. I could just ask whether the constitution is arbitrary, and in this case, you could not appeal to anything to ground or constrain it. The ultimate ground for the written law is the moral law, such that the first is a determination of the second given the circumstances of a given jurisdiction. Note also the distinction between lex and ius.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It’s not that you need a constitution, but rather than many democratic governments have a constitution and that must be considered in the context of “when you're making new laws you can make those laws say anything you want”.

lo_zamoyski 3y ago

Not exactly. The idea that law can be arbitrary is a severe and tyrannical perversion of the law. Human law is a circumstantial determination of the moral law (or ethical principles, if you will) and the demands of justice. Lex iniusta non est lex (an unjust law is not a law). So we are not at complete liberty to legislate arbitrarily just because we think we have the power to do so. Indeed, we run the risk of passing laws that aren't laws at all, but only have the appearance of law. Furthermore, determining the law is not the same as determining the outcome of having that law on the books. The law is permissive about many immoral behaviors, at least in part because the enforcement of laws regulating such behaviors would cause greater harm than the behavior in question. Prudential judgement among lawmakers is necessary to determine what should and should not be regulated.

abecedarius 3y ago
Downvoters: this is a nice nutshell statement of a thoroughly respectable thesis, relevant to the thread. I like Hayek's Law, Legislation, and Liberty for a long version, if you don't understand how it can possibly be reasonable.