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A) Is the following then the appropriate conclusion? Drink moderately, and find a spouse that drinks approximately as much as you. B) I wonder whether the foll

by FabHK 3y ago

A) Is the following then the appropriate conclusion? Drink moderately, and find a spouse that drinks approximately as much as you. B) I wonder whether the following set of hypotheses makes sense, and how one could test it: - Social life is good for health - Alcohol is bad for health, and the more, the worse (ie, a monotonous relationship) - At lower levels of alcohol consumption, it brings improvements in social life whose health benefits outweigh the health costs of consumption - At higher levels, this reverses. Thus explaining the U-shaped effect (quadratic, as the study terms it).

samename 3y ago
That’s how I understood it, too. From what I’ve come to learn, social health is most correlated with longevity. Despite alcohol’s negative physical effects, it appears to have net positive effects overall in terms of longevity when consumed at moderate/low doses.
- HlessClaudesman 3y ago
  This finding keeps coming up in social science research: being connected to people seems to increase longevity. Which begs the follow up question: what is the underlying mechanism(s) that causes this effect? Does social comparison promote self maintenance? Does the sharing of ideas lead to better cognitive hygiene? Does sharing power tools lead to less household accidents? Do we need to sniff other people's pheramones? On a sceptical note, do extraverts, the sort of people who consent to be studied, continually arrive at conclusions that justify extraversion, missing the huge cohort of introverts who are quite content with minimal social contact?
  - swores 3y ago
    > This finding keeps coming up in social science research: being connected to people seems to increase longevity. Has a causal relationship in that direction actually been shown in research, or just correlation? Because it seems very likely (well, certain for at least some people based on anecdotal experience) it goes in the other direction as well, i.e. someone who has serious health issues which cause them pain or low energy levels or whatever, would likely have less of a social life than if they were completely healthy even if they were the most social person imaginable before their health issues. If for example I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow and died of it in ten years time, I suspect it would significantly reduce the energy I have for social activity in the next ten years, but a study done just before I die finding correlation between my not having a good social life and my impending death wouldn't change the cause of death from cancer to lack of social contact. (FYI I'm not arguing that social activity doesn't have any positive impact on physical health / length of life, in fact I'm sure that it can - I just don't know to what extent research has or hasn't shown how much it's one way or the other.)
  - conductr 3y ago
    Having seen elderly people decline, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if it’s simply that that have a help network in place when they need it. I actually have a widowed neighbor approaching 90 with limited mobility but she’s been able to stay in her home comfortably enough because we have a rotation on our block that brings her meals (eg. We feed her on Wednesday, etc). She doesn’t really need the economic support but having someone cook and prepare and clean for her at each meal is a reason many people her age would move into an assisted living facility. Despite a high degree of social contact, duration of life once entering a facility like that is pretty low. She’s across the street from me so I even go take out her trash weekly to the curb and make sure her lawn guys are keeping things up to her standards (simple stuff like “hey, can you fix that sprinkler head”) Alcohol consumption could be something as simple as being a net positive for health in moderation after accounting for the impact of various stresses the average person encounters in life. These things are often encountered as a couple for married folks.
    - rmast 3y ago
      I think there’s been research regarding the supposed “J-curve” for alcohol consumption — essentially, the original research that led to the idea of moderate consumption being better than none failed to differentiate between people who have never had alcohol, and those who stopped drinking due to health conditions. I wouldn’t be surprised if this “couples drinking together” also has a similar bias.
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
I'm not sure if it's because of the alchohol, or the pre-selection of type of people that don't drink, by choice or health
modeless 3y ago
Not at all. The most likely explanation to me is the causality is reversed. Poor health or limited social life causes both abstinence and mortality. Nothing in the abstract suggests they did any analysis to determine causality which makes their statement at the end "showing that survival varies as a function of one’s own and one’s partner’s drinking" misleading, as it could easily be interpreted to imply causality. Of course they phrased it that way on purpose because implying causality makes their results sound way more important than they are.
- misja111 3y ago
  > Poor health or limited social life causes both abstinence and mortality. Your theory doesn't explain the observed positive correlation to lifespan when partners shared the same drinking habit.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    A compatible partner is part of "good social life".
  - codingdave 3y ago
    It might - if both partners feel good enough to go out and have a drink together, they are probably healthy. Or at least healthier than those who don't feel good enough to do so.
- mapreduce 3y ago
  > Of course they phrased it that way on purpose because implying causality makes their results sound way more important than they are. How do you know that? I am at a loss to understand how someone on HN can read one sentence and begin drawing conclusions about what other ulterior motives they had while writing the sentence? Maybe that sentence means exactly what it says and nothing more which is Z is a function of X and Y? Why perform psychoanalysis on that sentence? And if you have to perform psychoanalysis of that sentence, at least substantiate your conclusion by telling us what process you followed to rule out about a 100 other possible ulterior motives and conclude that "makes their results sound way more important than they are" is most definitely the ulterior motive they had?
snvzz 3y ago
>At lower levels of alcohol consumption, it brings improvements in social life whose health benefits outweigh the health costs of consumption Patently false, as we know today that the level of alcohol consumption that's best for you is ZERO.
- whywhywhywhy 3y ago
  French people seem evidence against that.
  - dagw 3y ago
    In what way? There has been plenty of studies on this and the general consensus is that while there may be certain health benefits to alcohol under certain conditions, in aggregate alcohol in any amount does not have a net positive effect on overall health.
  - Theodores 3y ago
    French people are adopting the Western diet in considerable numbers with all of the fast food chains getting in there. Obesity is on the rise. I have not been there recently but I expect to see things have changed across all demographics apart from the elderly. France cannot be used for comparison studies when it comes to diet and alcohol in the way it used to be.
    - whywhywhywhy 3y ago
      I'm obviously talking about the ones that eat the traditional diet, not American fake food
  - rmast 3y ago
    The counter argument for the J curve/French Paradox study is that their data for people who don’t drink is biased — it doesn’t distinguish between people who never drink because they don’t want to, and those who stopped due to underlying health conditions (thus making it appear as if mortality among those who don’t drink is higher).
- 3y ago

by FabHK 3y ago

samename 3y ago

That’s how I understood it, too. From what I’ve come to learn, social health is most correlated with longevity. Despite alcohol’s negative physical effects, it appears to have net positive effects overall in terms of longevity when consumed at moderate/low doses.

HlessClaudesman 3y ago
This finding keeps coming up in social science research: being connected to people seems to increase longevity. Which begs the follow up question: what is the underlying mechanism(s) that causes this effect? Does social comparison promote self maintenance? Does the sharing of ideas lead to better cognitive hygiene? Does sharing power tools lead to less household accidents? Do we need to sniff other people's pheramones? On a sceptical note, do extraverts, the sort of people who consent to be studied, continually arrive at conclusions that justify extraversion, missing the huge cohort of introverts who are quite content with minimal social contact?
- swores 3y ago
  > This finding keeps coming up in social science research: being connected to people seems to increase longevity. Has a causal relationship in that direction actually been shown in research, or just correlation? Because it seems very likely (well, certain for at least some people based on anecdotal experience) it goes in the other direction as well, i.e. someone who has serious health issues which cause them pain or low energy levels or whatever, would likely have less of a social life than if they were completely healthy even if they were the most social person imaginable before their health issues. If for example I were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow and died of it in ten years time, I suspect it would significantly reduce the energy I have for social activity in the next ten years, but a study done just before I die finding correlation between my not having a good social life and my impending death wouldn't change the cause of death from cancer to lack of social contact. (FYI I'm not arguing that social activity doesn't have any positive impact on physical health / length of life, in fact I'm sure that it can - I just don't know to what extent research has or hasn't shown how much it's one way or the other.)
- conductr 3y ago
  Having seen elderly people decline, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if it’s simply that that have a help network in place when they need it. I actually have a widowed neighbor approaching 90 with limited mobility but she’s been able to stay in her home comfortably enough because we have a rotation on our block that brings her meals (eg. We feed her on Wednesday, etc). She doesn’t really need the economic support but having someone cook and prepare and clean for her at each meal is a reason many people her age would move into an assisted living facility. Despite a high degree of social contact, duration of life once entering a facility like that is pretty low. She’s across the street from me so I even go take out her trash weekly to the curb and make sure her lawn guys are keeping things up to her standards (simple stuff like “hey, can you fix that sprinkler head”) Alcohol consumption could be something as simple as being a net positive for health in moderation after accounting for the impact of various stresses the average person encounters in life. These things are often encountered as a couple for married folks.
  - rmast 3y ago
    I think there’s been research regarding the supposed “J-curve” for alcohol consumption — essentially, the original research that led to the idea of moderate consumption being better than none failed to differentiate between people who have never had alcohol, and those who stopped drinking due to health conditions. I wouldn’t be surprised if this “couples drinking together” also has a similar bias.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

I'm not sure if it's because of the alchohol, or the pre-selection of type of people that don't drink, by choice or health

modeless 3y ago

Not at all. The most likely explanation to me is the causality is reversed. Poor health or limited social life causes both abstinence and mortality. Nothing in the abstract suggests they did any analysis to determine causality which makes their statement at the end "showing that survival varies as a function of one’s own and one’s partner’s drinking" misleading, as it could easily be interpreted to imply causality. Of course they phrased it that way on purpose because implying causality makes their results sound way more important than they are.

misja111 3y ago
> Poor health or limited social life causes both abstinence and mortality. Your theory doesn't explain the observed positive correlation to lifespan when partners shared the same drinking habit.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  A compatible partner is part of "good social life".
- codingdave 3y ago
  It might - if both partners feel good enough to go out and have a drink together, they are probably healthy. Or at least healthier than those who don't feel good enough to do so.
mapreduce 3y ago
> Of course they phrased it that way on purpose because implying causality makes their results sound way more important than they are. How do you know that? I am at a loss to understand how someone on HN can read one sentence and begin drawing conclusions about what other ulterior motives they had while writing the sentence? Maybe that sentence means exactly what it says and nothing more which is Z is a function of X and Y? Why perform psychoanalysis on that sentence? And if you have to perform psychoanalysis of that sentence, at least substantiate your conclusion by telling us what process you followed to rule out about a 100 other possible ulterior motives and conclude that "makes their results sound way more important than they are" is most definitely the ulterior motive they had?

snvzz 3y ago

>At lower levels of alcohol consumption, it brings improvements in social life whose health benefits outweigh the health costs of consumption Patently false, as we know today that the level of alcohol consumption that's best for you is ZERO.

whywhywhywhy 3y ago
French people seem evidence against that.
- dagw 3y ago
  In what way? There has been plenty of studies on this and the general consensus is that while there may be certain health benefits to alcohol under certain conditions, in aggregate alcohol in any amount does not have a net positive effect on overall health.
- Theodores 3y ago
  French people are adopting the Western diet in considerable numbers with all of the fast food chains getting in there. Obesity is on the rise. I have not been there recently but I expect to see things have changed across all demographics apart from the elderly. France cannot be used for comparison studies when it comes to diet and alcohol in the way it used to be.
  - whywhywhywhy 3y ago
    I'm obviously talking about the ones that eat the traditional diet, not American fake food
- rmast 3y ago
  The counter argument for the J curve/French Paradox study is that their data for people who don’t drink is biased — it doesn’t distinguish between people who never drink because they don’t want to, and those who stopped due to underlying health conditions (thus making it appear as if mortality among those who don’t drink is higher).
3y ago