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The US is not a very free country, despite the claims to the contrary. Try drinking some beer in a public park while having a picnic and see what the police do

The US is not a very free country, despite the claims to the contrary. Try drinking some beer in a public park while having a picnic and see what the police do to you. The main "freedom" in America is the ability of wealthy interests to screw over everyone.

djaykay 3y ago
Let’s steer clear of bitter partisanship and hyperbole, please. Freedom is a complex and nuanced concept.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  Partisanship and hyperbole? Where's the partisanship? There's no political party in the US that wants to legalize alcohol consumption in public parks (maybe the libertarians, but no one pays attention to them anyway, for good reason; their last Pres candidate didn't even know what Aleppo was when it was all over the news). Hyperbole? It's *literally* the truth. Go try it for yourself. Make sure a cop knows you're drinking a beer. There's nothing "complex" about this.
- sph 3y ago
  It becomes a complex and nuanced concept if you want to call freedom what ain't freedom.
- lm28469 3y ago
  Yet in all aggregated benchmarks the US never ends up on top
  - guappa 3y ago
    They're absolutely on top when they bomb you from above, for voting the wrong candidate at the elections.
- chgs 3y ago
  I don’t gel I’ve any European country claims to be “home of the free” while massively limiting pretty much any freedom other than gun ownership
cromka 3y ago
Free as in beer vs Free as in beer in a park!
rpmisms 3y ago
And Europe isn't free if I want to own a gun. See, I can also do a single-factor analysis and come out ahead!
- lm28469 3y ago
  In many eu countries you can get a suppressor much more easily than in the US, also you can own guns (handgun, shotguns, rifles, semi autos) in most places and carry guns in a lot of them if you have a reason to
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Suppressors, absolutely true. Owning guns is a different story. In the US, it's actually easy to do. Austria and the Czech Republic are the closest to US average, and it's still significantly harder. Also, most of the US has permitless carry. If you can own the gun, you can carry it, period.
- cromka 3y ago
  Neither is NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago! Meanwhile you can easily get a gun in Scandinavia or Switzerland or Czechia. Not a good example, to be honest.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    NYC is the only city on that list with any real restrictions. Much easier on Philly than any European country, and the European countries are still tougher than NYC.
  - closewith 3y ago
    > Meanwhile you can easily get a gun in Scandinavia or Switzerland or Czechia. Easily is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
    - kwhitefoot 3y ago
      It goes like this: fill in a form, get a certificate from the police saying you are a person in good standing, buy a gun.
nozzlegear 3y ago
This complaint boils down to “X is not very free because they have laws that differ from my own country due to very different cultures.” > The main "freedom" in America is the ability of wealthy interests to screw over everyone. Try as I might, I’m failing to picture which shadowy cabal of wealthy elite might be behind the laws preventing day drinking in parks, and how they might be benefiting from it.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  There’s a very good case to be made that these kind of laws are selectively used as a tool to oppress minorities and the poor. So while it’s probably not the straightforward Mr. Burns picture you painted, it is absolutely one of many tools in a large toolbox employed in America to continue to maintain the existing power dynamic.
  - styren 3y ago
    Do you mind making this "very good case" for this legal oppression to a non-American?
    - mathieuh 3y ago
      Well, to use a quote from Anatole France who put it more pithily: > In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.
  - nozzlegear 3y ago
    This is a very interesting perspective that I hadn’t considered, and I think it’s because I’m from a very small Midwest town where homelessness is not an issue. So when the person I replied to talks about public drinking in parks, in my head I’m picturing the family gatherings my family does each year in the park; and I think about several of my relatives who struggle with alcohol addiction, and my reaction is “well yeah, of course nobody wants to deal with a huge group of drunk people being rowdy in the park.” What I don’t consider is how those same laws can be used against homeless people to remove them from the same park. In a town of 3000 people, homelessness is not something that really exists here. Thanks for your comment, it has helped me understand the issue.
anal_reactor 3y ago
>be me >live in freedomland >"hello sir have you been to sunday's demonstration" >yes >fired >https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/fired-political-affiliation-activity https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/... >apply for another minumum wage job >"in order to assure the highest quality of service, we require you to pee in a cup on monthly basis, it is of utmost importance that walmart cashiers don't ever smoke weed on their weekends because reasons" >apply for a third job >"wow sir you peed in public 20 years ago, I'm sorry but this is an unforgivable mistake, I can't hire people who have a history of peeing in public" The methods that the US society uses to force its citizens to comply with social norms are similar to Soviet Russia. Yes, technically speaking law doesn't prevent you from doing things, but if you do them, you'll get fired and won't find another job "because it is the freedom of the corporation to decide not to work with you" and have fun living without a job. I am so happy that EU has, in general, much better protection of worker rights.
danpalmer 3y ago
Similarly, much of Europe scores higher on the Democracy Index than the US. The US loves to say how democratic it is, but it's democratic in a few specific ways and misses out on most other aspects. The 538 podcast did a good breakdown of this a year or two ago.
cjk2 3y ago
A US friend of mine says the only freedom in the US is freedom to be an asshole.

djaykay 3y ago

Let’s steer clear of bitter partisanship and hyperbole, please. Freedom is a complex and nuanced concept.

shiroiushi 3y ago
Partisanship and hyperbole? Where's the partisanship? There's no political party in the US that wants to legalize alcohol consumption in public parks (maybe the libertarians, but no one pays attention to them anyway, for good reason; their last Pres candidate didn't even know what Aleppo was when it was all over the news). Hyperbole? It's *literally* the truth. Go try it for yourself. Make sure a cop knows you're drinking a beer. There's nothing "complex" about this.
sph 3y ago
It becomes a complex and nuanced concept if you want to call freedom what ain't freedom.
lm28469 3y ago
Yet in all aggregated benchmarks the US never ends up on top
- guappa 3y ago
  They're absolutely on top when they bomb you from above, for voting the wrong candidate at the elections.
chgs 3y ago
I don’t gel I’ve any European country claims to be “home of the free” while massively limiting pretty much any freedom other than gun ownership

cromka 3y ago

Free as in beer vs Free as in beer in a park!

rpmisms 3y ago

And Europe isn't free if I want to own a gun. See, I can also do a single-factor analysis and come out ahead!

lm28469 3y ago
In many eu countries you can get a suppressor much more easily than in the US, also you can own guns (handgun, shotguns, rifles, semi autos) in most places and carry guns in a lot of them if you have a reason to
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Suppressors, absolutely true. Owning guns is a different story. In the US, it's actually easy to do. Austria and the Czech Republic are the closest to US average, and it's still significantly harder. Also, most of the US has permitless carry. If you can own the gun, you can carry it, period.
cromka 3y ago
Neither is NYC, Philadelphia or Chicago! Meanwhile you can easily get a gun in Scandinavia or Switzerland or Czechia. Not a good example, to be honest.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  NYC is the only city on that list with any real restrictions. Much easier on Philly than any European country, and the European countries are still tougher than NYC.
- closewith 3y ago
  > Meanwhile you can easily get a gun in Scandinavia or Switzerland or Czechia. Easily is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    It goes like this: fill in a form, get a certificate from the police saying you are a person in good standing, buy a gun.

nozzlegear 3y ago

This complaint boils down to “X is not very free because they have laws that differ from my own country due to very different cultures.” > The main "freedom" in America is the ability of wealthy interests to screw over everyone. Try as I might, I’m failing to picture which shadowy cabal of wealthy elite might be behind the laws preventing day drinking in parks, and how they might be benefiting from it.

SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
There’s a very good case to be made that these kind of laws are selectively used as a tool to oppress minorities and the poor. So while it’s probably not the straightforward Mr. Burns picture you painted, it is absolutely one of many tools in a large toolbox employed in America to continue to maintain the existing power dynamic.
- styren 3y ago
  Do you mind making this "very good case" for this legal oppression to a non-American?
  - mathieuh 3y ago
    Well, to use a quote from Anatole France who put it more pithily: > In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.
- nozzlegear 3y ago
  This is a very interesting perspective that I hadn’t considered, and I think it’s because I’m from a very small Midwest town where homelessness is not an issue. So when the person I replied to talks about public drinking in parks, in my head I’m picturing the family gatherings my family does each year in the park; and I think about several of my relatives who struggle with alcohol addiction, and my reaction is “well yeah, of course nobody wants to deal with a huge group of drunk people being rowdy in the park.” What I don’t consider is how those same laws can be used against homeless people to remove them from the same park. In a town of 3000 people, homelessness is not something that really exists here. Thanks for your comment, it has helped me understand the issue.

anal_reactor 3y ago

>be me >live in freedomland >"hello sir have you been to sunday's demonstration" >yes >fired >https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/fired-political-affiliation-activity https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance/... >apply for another minumum wage job >"in order to assure the highest quality of service, we require you to pee in a cup on monthly basis, it is of utmost importance that walmart cashiers don't ever smoke weed on their weekends because reasons" >apply for a third job >"wow sir you peed in public 20 years ago, I'm sorry but this is an unforgivable mistake, I can't hire people who have a history of peeing in public" The methods that the US society uses to force its citizens to comply with social norms are similar to Soviet Russia. Yes, technically speaking law doesn't prevent you from doing things, but if you do them, you'll get fired and won't find another job "because it is the freedom of the corporation to decide not to work with you" and have fun living without a job. I am so happy that EU has, in general, much better protection of worker rights.

danpalmer 3y ago

Similarly, much of Europe scores higher on the Democracy Index than the US. The US loves to say how democratic it is, but it's democratic in a few specific ways and misses out on most other aspects. The 538 podcast did a good breakdown of this a year or two ago.

cjk2 3y ago

A US friend of mine says the only freedom in the US is freedom to be an asshole.