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Shenzhen Issues Plan to Promote Development of HarmonyOS Operating System

51 points by gscott 3y ago

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
I genuinely wish them well. There has been scant but minor consumer flourishes in OSes for a long long time. Harmony's basis as a distributed multikernel (Linux, LiteOS, other?) OS, with DSoftBus connecting services is an aggressive leap forwards that looks so promising & neat; apps and devices working together (it reminds me of Webinos a bit). Their Ark development experience looks like a decent distillation/extension of JS/typescript, which could become a stable path in a still chaotic Js world. The plan here sounds very open source oriented, which is promising & IMHO what it will take for Harmony to have staying power. But it feels like a kind of tumltous time for Harmony. Open Harmony and others feels like they're more than somewhat being left behind as Huawei advances a seemingly re-proprietarized HarmonyOS NEXT. Right when Harmony seemed to be coming into it's own, it feels torn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT There's very few guides or experience out there on using Open Harmony. Huawei really seemed to have capture the Harmony market, and their recent sudden shift to proprietary is a huge barrier to this early OS keeping traction forwards. It's unclear how Open Harmony or other open source Harmony's are going to proceed. I hope they can create some good
- beAbU 3y ago
  I always thought HarmonyOS was a fork of Android. TIL.
  - reisse 3y ago
    There are two of them. HarmonyOS is a fork of Android, another (I think it's officially called OpenHarmony) is a custom microkernel OS for IoT devices.
- zb3 3y ago
  > I hope they can create some good You mean backdoors? Don't forget these are not optional in China
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    This is such a common view, but are software backdoors really that much less common in the US or EU? Data is often the real value when it comes to governments, and at that point the only protection is either using services that collect very little (few exist) or end to end encryption. On the E2E front, it seems only a matter of time until one of the many attempts to require encryption backdoors passes in the west.
    - zb3 3y ago
      I've personally analysed various Chinese CCTV firmware vendors and backdoors planted there were obvious, here's an example: https://github.com/zb3/tiandy-research https://github.com/zb3/tiandy-research, but a better example was XiongMai which actively tried to disguise the backdoor ("Ret" was normally used for replies in that protocol, but the backdoor op requires it set in the request, you can't explain this by incompetence) Are vendors in the US or EU required to do crap like that while also being prohibited to admit it? Of course services that collect the data "in the cloud" share that data with the government, but this is official and predictable.
      - _heimdall 3y ago
        I expect it depends quite a bit on how specific of a definitions of "backdoors" we're talking about. Our main OSes, desktop and mobile, have quite a few backdoors though I couldn't speak to whether the government forced them to do it. Mobile phones, mobile networks, and most (if not all) of the internet trunk lines include backdoors for the government to use. Data collection isn't technically a backdoor, though functionally it is as it allows the government to do what they want to while dodging regulations for search warrants and similar. The Twitter files point to another backdoor, even if again not technically quite a software "backdoor". If we stick to the strict definition of a backdoor, the CCP very likely has more control over companies and does require software backdoors for the government to access. In a more general sense though, I at least wouldn't consider the US or the EU to be meaningfully better about the government having access to and control of tech in much the same way.
- cies 3y ago
  > their recent sudden shift to proprietary is... ...the reason i do not wish them well :)
zb3 3y ago
Alternative name: BackdoorOS
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - zb3 3y ago
    Windows sends data to Microsoft and Microsoft shares the data with the government. This is official and mandated by the law. But XiongMai plants backdoors in their CCTV firmware so that data is shared with anyone interested, all around the world. Of course it magically turns out, that cameras they supply for the government are not vulnerable. What a coincidence...
  - hagbard_c 3y ago
    More like Spy vs Spy [1] in this case. [1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meet-the-cuban-expatriate-who-created-spy-vs-spy https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meet-the-cuban-expatri...
  - jszymborski 3y ago
    The equivocating in this thread boggles the mind. - Windows isn't the only other OS, nor would that mean that what the CCP is doing with HarmonyOS is OK. - Backdoors are the rule, not the exception in China. This is not true of the US. - I disagree with the Patriot Act and NSLs, but let's not forget that the US is a free democracy and that those laws can change if there is political will. That isn't the case in China.
    - kkzz99 3y ago
      Its like people completely forgot Prism. The caricature like understanding from Americans of China is mind boggling. I guess decades of McCarthyism takes its toll on the American mind.
      - 3y ago
Havoc 3y ago
Can’t say I blame them give how windows is going. The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over but only partially and the entire thing is dragged down by the telemetry
- netsharc 3y ago
  > The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over Ah, you're talking about Windows' UI. I was wondering where I could see screenshots of HarmonyOS. But yeah Windows 10/11's "Settings" is a mix of mobile-esque UI and the old-school Windows 7 (or XP?) control panel screens. I'd hate to be working on it, the PM's must've said everything needs to be reworked but they didn't give the UI/UX designers and developers the time to do so before "We've got to ship! Besides, we do continous delivery now, if we don't finish it, it can wait until the next release!". Interestingly, I'd be curious how much telemetry an OS made under the Xi regime would have, at least in China. From an article [1] (on HN yesterday: [2]), when police visited a teen and told him he uploaded "anti government" videos: > “That’s ridiculous,” Vincent said. “I have never browsed such videos, not to mention posted them in the Internet. You must be joking.” > “Maybe you didn’t post it by yourself,” the policeman said. “But the app may back up the video automatically.” > Vincent admitted that once, in a WeChat group, he had come across a terrorist video. The police instructed him to get his I.D. card and accompany them to the station. After they arrived, they entered a room labelled “Cybersecurity Police,” where Vincent was impressed by the officers’ politeness. (“It’s not scary at all, no handcuffs and no cage.”) The police informed him that they had found a host of sensitive and banned material on his cloud storage: > “But how interesting it is!” the policeman said. “They sent pornographic videos, traffic accident videos, [breaking news] videos, and funny videos.” > “Yes,” he said helplessly, “so I am innocent.” > “Yes, we believe you,” the policeman said. “But you have to [sign] the record because it is the fact that you posted the terrorism video in the Internet, which is illegal.” [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/how-chinese-students-experience-america https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/how-chinese-st... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39923662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39923662
  - dangus 3y ago
cies 3y ago
Harmony is a bit of a loaded word in Chinese (nowadays, not sure how about it historically) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonious_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonious_Society In the west you "promote hate" or "spread misinfo" or "are a Russian agent"; in China you "disturb the harmony". All ways to silence dissent if you ask me.
- dwallin 3y ago
  Exploring the meaning behind the use of the word "Harmony" was the beginning of an interesting discussion but the last part of your comment unfortunately reads like thinly-veiled partisan jabs. You unnecessarily chose phrases particularly associated with the American left-wing when a more neutral approach would have been sufficient. The idea of "Harmony" is strongly connected to collectivist ideology. In the west, mainstream political parties tend to embody particular aspects of collectivism, while parties that completely embrace or reject it are relegated to the fringe (eg. Communist or Libertarian parties). In the US, the right-wing tends to be highly collectivist when it comes to the military/law enforcement (eg. "Support our troops"), religious practice, and national identity (eg. "Patriots") while the left-wing tends to be more collectivist when it comes to government programs and policy (eg. Universal Healthcare).
  - cies 3y ago
    Could not agree with you more. I was maybe --in my defence-- more pointing towards the irony of the word which I happen to know (as an outsider) is so ingrained in Chinese state messaging that it even has an "internet slang", namely: river crab. Wrt my own political-economic convictions, im a socialist far more left than "typical left wing american", which are not socialist (so not actually "left" of anything) and this mere right wingers in disguise imho. Im not from the US btw.
  - cies 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censor...
- hehhehaha 3y ago
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
Related: Has China Lost Its Taste for the iPhone? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39815330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39815330
brcmthrowaway 3y ago
Is harmonyOS android?
dangus 3y ago
I’m not surprised at the lack of enlightening conversation on this topic. Like, yeah, I get it, China is an authoritarian surveillance state. We all know that. Just don’t be surprised when China’s public and private enterprises make strides to curb their dependence on Western hardware and software. Don’t be surprised when they catch up quickly like they have in so many industries. “China will never make globally competitive cars” “China will never be able to make its own heavy industry products like jets and trains” “China will never be able design its own chips” “China can’t write good software” Don’t underestimate your rival.
- Kalanos 3y ago
  Many groundbreaking research papers are written by researchers at Chinese institutes
- r14c 3y ago
  But accurately estimating your rival undermines the load-bearing assumption of total superiority. Nobody can rival the greatest nation on earth.
- realusername 3y ago
  Don't overestimate them either, there's a single developed dictatorship on earth and it's the city state of Singapore. There's some good reasons behind that and I have a feeling they are discovering some of those paradox at the moment.
  - dangus 3y ago
    Just one? What about Turkey? Saudi Arabia? UAE? Qatar? Russia? You could probably include Vietnam and Jordan.
    - snowpid 3y ago
      Singapore is the only well government country on your list. Nobody wants to live in one of these countries. Singapore has its audience.

51 points by gscott 3y ago

I genuinely wish them well. There has been scant but minor consumer flourishes in OSes for a long long time. Harmony's basis as a distributed multikernel (Linux, LiteOS, other?) OS, with DSoftBus connecting services is an aggressive leap forwards that looks so promising & neat; apps and devices working together (it reminds me of Webinos a bit). Their Ark development experience looks like a decent distillation/extension of JS/typescript, which could become a stable path in a still chaotic Js world. The plan here sounds very open source oriented, which is promising & IMHO what it will take for Harmony to have staying power. But it feels like a kind of tumltous time for Harmony. Open Harmony and others feels like they're more than somewhat being left behind as Huawei advances a seemingly re-proprietarized HarmonyOS NEXT. Right when Harmony seemed to be coming into it's own, it feels torn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT There's very few guides or experience out there on using Open Harmony. Huawei really seemed to have capture the Harmony market, and their recent sudden shift to proprietary is a huge barrier to this early OS keeping traction forwards. It's unclear how Open Harmony or other open source Harmony's are going to proceed. I hope they can create some good

beAbU 3y ago
I always thought HarmonyOS was a fork of Android. TIL.
- reisse 3y ago
  There are two of them. HarmonyOS is a fork of Android, another (I think it's officially called OpenHarmony) is a custom microkernel OS for IoT devices.
zb3 3y ago
> I hope they can create some good You mean backdoors? Don't forget these are not optional in China
- _heimdall 3y ago
  This is such a common view, but are software backdoors really that much less common in the US or EU? Data is often the real value when it comes to governments, and at that point the only protection is either using services that collect very little (few exist) or end to end encryption. On the E2E front, it seems only a matter of time until one of the many attempts to require encryption backdoors passes in the west.
  - zb3 3y ago
    I've personally analysed various Chinese CCTV firmware vendors and backdoors planted there were obvious, here's an example: https://github.com/zb3/tiandy-research https://github.com/zb3/tiandy-research, but a better example was XiongMai which actively tried to disguise the backdoor ("Ret" was normally used for replies in that protocol, but the backdoor op requires it set in the request, you can't explain this by incompetence) Are vendors in the US or EU required to do crap like that while also being prohibited to admit it? Of course services that collect the data "in the cloud" share that data with the government, but this is official and predictable.
    - _heimdall 3y ago
      I expect it depends quite a bit on how specific of a definitions of "backdoors" we're talking about. Our main OSes, desktop and mobile, have quite a few backdoors though I couldn't speak to whether the government forced them to do it. Mobile phones, mobile networks, and most (if not all) of the internet trunk lines include backdoors for the government to use. Data collection isn't technically a backdoor, though functionally it is as it allows the government to do what they want to while dodging regulations for search warrants and similar. The Twitter files point to another backdoor, even if again not technically quite a software "backdoor". If we stick to the strict definition of a backdoor, the CCP very likely has more control over companies and does require software backdoors for the government to access. In a more general sense though, I at least wouldn't consider the US or the EU to be meaningfully better about the government having access to and control of tech in much the same way.
cies 3y ago
> their recent sudden shift to proprietary is... ...the reason i do not wish them well :)

zb3 3y ago

Alternative name: BackdoorOS

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
[flagged]
- zb3 3y ago
  Windows sends data to Microsoft and Microsoft shares the data with the government. This is official and mandated by the law. But XiongMai plants backdoors in their CCTV firmware so that data is shared with anyone interested, all around the world. Of course it magically turns out, that cameras they supply for the government are not vulnerable. What a coincidence...
- hagbard_c 3y ago
  More like Spy vs Spy [1] in this case. [1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meet-the-cuban-expatriate-who-created-spy-vs-spy https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/meet-the-cuban-expatri...
- jszymborski 3y ago
  The equivocating in this thread boggles the mind. - Windows isn't the only other OS, nor would that mean that what the CCP is doing with HarmonyOS is OK. - Backdoors are the rule, not the exception in China. This is not true of the US. - I disagree with the Patriot Act and NSLs, but let's not forget that the US is a free democracy and that those laws can change if there is political will. That isn't the case in China.
  - kkzz99 3y ago
    Its like people completely forgot Prism. The caricature like understanding from Americans of China is mind boggling. I guess decades of McCarthyism takes its toll on the American mind.
    - 3y ago

Havoc 3y ago

Can’t say I blame them give how windows is going. The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over but only partially and the entire thing is dragged down by the telemetry

netsharc 3y ago
> The UI approach reminds me of a wall that has been repeatedly painted over Ah, you're talking about Windows' UI. I was wondering where I could see screenshots of HarmonyOS. But yeah Windows 10/11's "Settings" is a mix of mobile-esque UI and the old-school Windows 7 (or XP?) control panel screens. I'd hate to be working on it, the PM's must've said everything needs to be reworked but they didn't give the UI/UX designers and developers the time to do so before "We've got to ship! Besides, we do continous delivery now, if we don't finish it, it can wait until the next release!". Interestingly, I'd be curious how much telemetry an OS made under the Xi regime would have, at least in China. From an article [1] (on HN yesterday: [2]), when police visited a teen and told him he uploaded "anti government" videos: > “That’s ridiculous,” Vincent said. “I have never browsed such videos, not to mention posted them in the Internet. You must be joking.” > “Maybe you didn’t post it by yourself,” the policeman said. “But the app may back up the video automatically.” > Vincent admitted that once, in a WeChat group, he had come across a terrorist video. The police instructed him to get his I.D. card and accompany them to the station. After they arrived, they entered a room labelled “Cybersecurity Police,” where Vincent was impressed by the officers’ politeness. (“It’s not scary at all, no handcuffs and no cage.”) The police informed him that they had found a host of sensitive and banned material on his cloud storage: > “But how interesting it is!” the policeman said. “They sent pornographic videos, traffic accident videos, [breaking news] videos, and funny videos.” > “Yes,” he said helplessly, “so I am innocent.” > “Yes, we believe you,” the policeman said. “But you have to [sign] the record because it is the fact that you posted the terrorism video in the Internet, which is illegal.” [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/how-chinese-students-experience-america https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/08/how-chinese-st... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39923662 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39923662
- dangus 3y ago

cies 3y ago

Harmony is a bit of a loaded word in Chinese (nowadays, not sure how about it historically) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonious_Society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonious_Society In the west you "promote hate" or "spread misinfo" or "are a Russian agent"; in China you "disturb the harmony". All ways to silence dissent if you ask me.

dwallin 3y ago
Exploring the meaning behind the use of the word "Harmony" was the beginning of an interesting discussion but the last part of your comment unfortunately reads like thinly-veiled partisan jabs. You unnecessarily chose phrases particularly associated with the American left-wing when a more neutral approach would have been sufficient. The idea of "Harmony" is strongly connected to collectivist ideology. In the west, mainstream political parties tend to embody particular aspects of collectivism, while parties that completely embrace or reject it are relegated to the fringe (eg. Communist or Libertarian parties). In the US, the right-wing tends to be highly collectivist when it comes to the military/law enforcement (eg. "Support our troops"), religious practice, and national identity (eg. "Patriots") while the left-wing tends to be more collectivist when it comes to government programs and policy (eg. Universal Healthcare).
- cies 3y ago
  Could not agree with you more. I was maybe --in my defence-- more pointing towards the irony of the word which I happen to know (as an outsider) is so ingrained in Chinese state messaging that it even has an "internet slang", namely: river crab. Wrt my own political-economic convictions, im a socialist far more left than "typical left wing american", which are not socialist (so not actually "left" of anything) and this mere right wingers in disguise imho. Im not from the US btw.
- cies 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censorship_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censor...
hehhehaha 3y ago

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

Related: Has China Lost Its Taste for the iPhone? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39815330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39815330

brcmthrowaway 3y ago

Is harmonyOS android?

dangus 3y ago

I’m not surprised at the lack of enlightening conversation on this topic. Like, yeah, I get it, China is an authoritarian surveillance state. We all know that. Just don’t be surprised when China’s public and private enterprises make strides to curb their dependence on Western hardware and software. Don’t be surprised when they catch up quickly like they have in so many industries. “China will never make globally competitive cars” “China will never be able to make its own heavy industry products like jets and trains” “China will never be able design its own chips” “China can’t write good software” Don’t underestimate your rival.

Kalanos 3y ago
Many groundbreaking research papers are written by researchers at Chinese institutes
r14c 3y ago
But accurately estimating your rival undermines the load-bearing assumption of total superiority. Nobody can rival the greatest nation on earth.
realusername 3y ago
Don't overestimate them either, there's a single developed dictatorship on earth and it's the city state of Singapore. There's some good reasons behind that and I have a feeling they are discovering some of those paradox at the moment.
- dangus 3y ago
  Just one? What about Turkey? Saudi Arabia? UAE? Qatar? Russia? You could probably include Vietnam and Jordan.
  - snowpid 3y ago
    Singapore is the only well government country on your list. Nobody wants to live in one of these countries. Singapore has its audience.