6 ms·

The root problem is that the legal system is completely inaccessible and non-existent to individuals or small companies. Even to medium companies. Only mega cor

The root problem is that the legal system is completely inaccessible and non-existent to individuals or small companies. Even to medium companies. Only mega corps and law firms can afford to use the legal system. Even big tech often avoids it because of the expense, but if they do use it, they’re going to win, 99.9% of the time because of their war chests So, people are semi defenceless when these things come up, and you can really abuse people in pretty epic and unending ways

olliej 3y ago
The issue is that defending this generally requires paying a lawyer, and filing fraudulent DMCA claims is free, and comes with no requirement to pay the legal fees of the recipient if the claim is false
david_shi 3y ago
Agreed. Increasing the predictability and transparency of these systems is crucial for a functional society
RobotToaster 3y ago
That was my thought. A fake DMCA claim is fraud or at least perjury, but trying to actually bring a claim for that will be difficult for most people.
lupire 3y ago
There's no legal threat here. It's all fake.
- icedchai 3y ago
  Sadly, many folks will assume an "official" sounding message or call is actually legitimate. Especially if it's from someone calling themselves a lawyer. Next the AI law firms will be requesting payment in iTunes gift cards...
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    I think there is a belief (right or wrong) among a lot of lay-people and non-lawyers that the legal system is an opaque minefield of "gotchas" where if you don't file form 27B/6 within 30 days, with a specific magical incantation X written on it, and then appear before a judge and speak magical incantation Y, then gotcha! you lose! So any time something looks even remotely official, people panic and wonder which minefield they are going to inadvertently step on, even by ignoring it.
    - pixl97 3y ago
      I mean the idea of 'default judgement' isn't something most people want to find out about. This said you typically get some severe and officially delivered warnings on that.
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      In addition, there’s the knowledge that what happens next is likely to be expensive, no matter how it resolves. A letter from a lawyer? There goes a rent payment.
    - jfengel 3y ago
      To be fair, I have heard that from a lot of lawyers. They say that any time you touch the legal system without a lawyer, you are setting yourself up for trouble. This is not just self interest. There really are a lot of hidden traps. Words almost never mean what you think they mean. If they have a lawyer and you don't, you are taking a serious risk.
    - amenhotep 3y ago
      Very good choice of form.
    - francisdavey 3y ago
      When I used to appear in court a lot, I ran into plenty of intelligent people who managed to mess up badly because they didn't follow simple, clearly advertised, rules. So even though in theory it should be simple to do something, in practice people often get it wrong. i.e. even where it isn't opaque, it is surprising how many people mess up. (Of course that includes lawyers)
- datascienced 3y ago
  You need to pay a lawyer to find that out!
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    Depends on the region. I usually write (or now have gpt write) a letter with a bunch of fines in it back and that almost always shuts them up. I have never complied with any legal actions against me; I have been to court and that was cheap without a lawyer as well. I did nothing wrong, so I am quite confident I will always win; so far going strong for over 30 years since I am an adult and received such nonsense directed at me or my company. I would never live in a country (guess US) where you need a kidney to defend yourself even if you did nothing wrong.
  - TrackerFF 3y ago
    Or you can just wait it out. If they are serious, they will follow it up - and you will eventually have to show up in court.
  - cmeacham98 3y ago
    Shouldn't a simple search of the relevant state's bar registry be sufficient to realize the lawyer is fake? I guess you'd have to at least suspect the letter was fake to try that, so you might miss it if that's not even on your radar.
antonvs 3y ago
> completely inaccessible and non-existent to individuals or small companies. Even to medium companies. Only mega corps and law firms can afford to use the legal system. For individuals you have a point, but for small and medium companies this seems like an exaggeration. I've worked for several startups. The smallest was one that I co-founded with no outside funding - we maxed out at five employees, three of whom were co-founders, but nevertheless we registered and successfully defended trademarks and copyrights. That business ran until its main product became obsolete, for about 5 years. The funded startups I've worked for all used the legal system around IP in various ways: trademarks, patents, copyright. One of these bogus DMCA claims would be easily and cheaply dismissed by any competent lawyer. And really, probably doesn't even require a lawyer unless a hosting company acts on it and doesn't listen to any objections.
- tmpz22 3y ago
  > One of these bogus DMCA claims would be easily and cheaply dismissed by any competent lawyer. If you're a new small business owner how do you vet lawyers for competency? If you accidentally engage a less then competent lawyer who screws up, how does that impact the individual and company?
  - joecool1029 3y ago
    I've received takedown claims and requests to settle before from some trolls (once by Getty but I didn't handle that one directly). Usually it was old contributed blog posts with an improperly cited image or site theme components we purchased that contained stuff that wasn't properly licensed. We'd take it down and then onto the next step... I made friends with a few local lawyers, explained the situation and asked them to send a response on their letterhead or via email telling them in proper legal language to 'fuck off' (usually they'd mention it was outside statute of limitations and the use was never willful infringement or it was user contributed and we were only hosting the content). There was never a situation where they didn't leave us alone after that. I guess they assume real small companies will either panic and pay to settle or ignore legal summons and lose by default?
datascienced 3y ago
The legal system is somewhat accessible to businesses and middle class people. Not sure about USA but in Australia there is plenty of things like free legal advice, plain english descriptions of laws including case studies, legal aid and small claims courts and other tribunal/arbitration jurisdictions designed to be used without a lawyer. While more money = better access to law, there is a lot for the non rich!
Cheer2171 3y ago
I've sued several businesses and individuals in small claims court (in California) including two multinationals on the S&P 500. I have no formal legal training, only what every open source dev learns through licensing. The court bureaucracy was about as hard for me to learn than learning how to convert an out of state drivers license to my new state. Finding a process server was the hardest part. You write your account of what happened in colloquial English, you attach evidence, you show up before a judge and they decide. You don't actually need a lawyer to respond to bogus charges. Legal trolls make their money assuming most people settle or don't show up. Just submit your evidence, show up in court, and if it is bogus, it will be clear.
- banana_feather 3y ago
  > You don't actually need a lawyer to respond to bogus charges. Small claims court is a completely different beast, it is designed to be navigated without counsel. If you play this way in civil litigation you are likely going to lose before you know what hit you.
  - bartonfink 3y ago
    GP did the legal equivalent of pasting a bunch of shit from stack overflow and claiming they're a talented software engineer.
- Animats 3y ago
  > Finding a process server was the hardest part. Why? Search brings up lots of them. I once used a process server service called "Attila the Hun School of Charm". They are gone, but there's a "Gotcha Process Servers" in San Francisco.
- akaru 3y ago
  Go on…
dclowd9901 3y ago
You can chill people, but abuse them? That depends on if you’re actually willing to file an injunction. I see a letter like this, I’ll wait for them to file an injunction.
johndhi 3y ago
As a lawyer who has worked in and for big tech, we don't win 99% of the time. Far less. There are very well financed players and structural incentive that allow plaintiffs lawyers to win and take lots of money from big tech in the US.
lulznews 3y ago
Indeed, rule of law has been known to be a farce for some time.

olliej 3y ago

The issue is that defending this generally requires paying a lawyer, and filing fraudulent DMCA claims is free, and comes with no requirement to pay the legal fees of the recipient if the claim is false

david_shi 3y ago

Agreed. Increasing the predictability and transparency of these systems is crucial for a functional society

RobotToaster 3y ago

That was my thought. A fake DMCA claim is fraud or at least perjury, but trying to actually bring a claim for that will be difficult for most people.

lupire 3y ago

There's no legal threat here. It's all fake.

icedchai 3y ago
Sadly, many folks will assume an "official" sounding message or call is actually legitimate. Especially if it's from someone calling themselves a lawyer. Next the AI law firms will be requesting payment in iTunes gift cards...
- ryandrake 3y ago
  I think there is a belief (right or wrong) among a lot of lay-people and non-lawyers that the legal system is an opaque minefield of "gotchas" where if you don't file form 27B/6 within 30 days, with a specific magical incantation X written on it, and then appear before a judge and speak magical incantation Y, then gotcha! you lose! So any time something looks even remotely official, people panic and wonder which minefield they are going to inadvertently step on, even by ignoring it.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    I mean the idea of 'default judgement' isn't something most people want to find out about. This said you typically get some severe and officially delivered warnings on that.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    In addition, there’s the knowledge that what happens next is likely to be expensive, no matter how it resolves. A letter from a lawyer? There goes a rent payment.
  - jfengel 3y ago
    To be fair, I have heard that from a lot of lawyers. They say that any time you touch the legal system without a lawyer, you are setting yourself up for trouble. This is not just self interest. There really are a lot of hidden traps. Words almost never mean what you think they mean. If they have a lawyer and you don't, you are taking a serious risk.
  - amenhotep 3y ago
    Very good choice of form.
  - francisdavey 3y ago
    When I used to appear in court a lot, I ran into plenty of intelligent people who managed to mess up badly because they didn't follow simple, clearly advertised, rules. So even though in theory it should be simple to do something, in practice people often get it wrong. i.e. even where it isn't opaque, it is surprising how many people mess up. (Of course that includes lawyers)
datascienced 3y ago
You need to pay a lawyer to find that out!
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Depends on the region. I usually write (or now have gpt write) a letter with a bunch of fines in it back and that almost always shuts them up. I have never complied with any legal actions against me; I have been to court and that was cheap without a lawyer as well. I did nothing wrong, so I am quite confident I will always win; so far going strong for over 30 years since I am an adult and received such nonsense directed at me or my company. I would never live in a country (guess US) where you need a kidney to defend yourself even if you did nothing wrong.
- TrackerFF 3y ago
  Or you can just wait it out. If they are serious, they will follow it up - and you will eventually have to show up in court.
- cmeacham98 3y ago
  Shouldn't a simple search of the relevant state's bar registry be sufficient to realize the lawyer is fake? I guess you'd have to at least suspect the letter was fake to try that, so you might miss it if that's not even on your radar.

antonvs 3y ago

> completely inaccessible and non-existent to individuals or small companies. Even to medium companies. Only mega corps and law firms can afford to use the legal system. For individuals you have a point, but for small and medium companies this seems like an exaggeration. I've worked for several startups. The smallest was one that I co-founded with no outside funding - we maxed out at five employees, three of whom were co-founders, but nevertheless we registered and successfully defended trademarks and copyrights. That business ran until its main product became obsolete, for about 5 years. The funded startups I've worked for all used the legal system around IP in various ways: trademarks, patents, copyright. One of these bogus DMCA claims would be easily and cheaply dismissed by any competent lawyer. And really, probably doesn't even require a lawyer unless a hosting company acts on it and doesn't listen to any objections.

tmpz22 3y ago
> One of these bogus DMCA claims would be easily and cheaply dismissed by any competent lawyer. If you're a new small business owner how do you vet lawyers for competency? If you accidentally engage a less then competent lawyer who screws up, how does that impact the individual and company?
- joecool1029 3y ago
  I've received takedown claims and requests to settle before from some trolls (once by Getty but I didn't handle that one directly). Usually it was old contributed blog posts with an improperly cited image or site theme components we purchased that contained stuff that wasn't properly licensed. We'd take it down and then onto the next step... I made friends with a few local lawyers, explained the situation and asked them to send a response on their letterhead or via email telling them in proper legal language to 'fuck off' (usually they'd mention it was outside statute of limitations and the use was never willful infringement or it was user contributed and we were only hosting the content). There was never a situation where they didn't leave us alone after that. I guess they assume real small companies will either panic and pay to settle or ignore legal summons and lose by default?

datascienced 3y ago

The legal system is somewhat accessible to businesses and middle class people. Not sure about USA but in Australia there is plenty of things like free legal advice, plain english descriptions of laws including case studies, legal aid and small claims courts and other tribunal/arbitration jurisdictions designed to be used without a lawyer. While more money = better access to law, there is a lot for the non rich!

Cheer2171 3y ago

I've sued several businesses and individuals in small claims court (in California) including two multinationals on the S&P 500. I have no formal legal training, only what every open source dev learns through licensing. The court bureaucracy was about as hard for me to learn than learning how to convert an out of state drivers license to my new state. Finding a process server was the hardest part. You write your account of what happened in colloquial English, you attach evidence, you show up before a judge and they decide. You don't actually need a lawyer to respond to bogus charges. Legal trolls make their money assuming most people settle or don't show up. Just submit your evidence, show up in court, and if it is bogus, it will be clear.

banana_feather 3y ago
> You don't actually need a lawyer to respond to bogus charges. Small claims court is a completely different beast, it is designed to be navigated without counsel. If you play this way in civil litigation you are likely going to lose before you know what hit you.
- bartonfink 3y ago
  GP did the legal equivalent of pasting a bunch of shit from stack overflow and claiming they're a talented software engineer.
Animats 3y ago
> Finding a process server was the hardest part. Why? Search brings up lots of them. I once used a process server service called "Attila the Hun School of Charm". They are gone, but there's a "Gotcha Process Servers" in San Francisco.
akaru 3y ago
Go on…

dclowd9901 3y ago

You can chill people, but abuse them? That depends on if you’re actually willing to file an injunction. I see a letter like this, I’ll wait for them to file an injunction.

johndhi 3y ago

As a lawyer who has worked in and for big tech, we don't win 99% of the time. Far less. There are very well financed players and structural incentive that allow plaintiffs lawyers to win and take lots of money from big tech in the US.

lulznews 3y ago

Indeed, rule of law has been known to be a farce for some time.