7 ms·

How timely. I just finished reading The Word for World is Forest last night. Nobody likes a poo-pooer, but, holy moly, I thought it was unbelievable trash. Are

How timely. I just finished reading The Word for World is Forest last night. Nobody likes a poo-pooer, but, holy moly, I thought it was unbelievable trash. Are her other books better? This one was "noble savages: the book". The Creechies can't even conceive of inter-species murder until Big Bad Comic Book Evil Guy (who just loves being evil) introduces it. The creechies don't know evil. They settle their disputes as all superior noble people would: through art. I probably just got in my own way while reading. There was a lot of "wait.. they're sending _wood_ through interstellar space?". They have an ecology that can support a supply chain that produces food in excess to perform 40+ year round trips through space, but... they can't grow a tree? A tomato plant? Sure. A tree? Nah. It might be a good kids book, if not for all the... raping.

sampo 3y ago
> Are her other books better? Yes. The Word for World is Forest is one of her weakest books.
throw1234651234 3y ago
Is this book in the same vein as "N. K. Jemisin is a real author"? Good to be forewarned.
- lemmsjid 3y ago
  Jemisin is one of the more visceral and imaginative writers I've encountered in recent years, and she did indeed produce and publish written works, so I do believe she is a real author, yes. I'd certainly be interested in reading and maybe discussing an actual critique, this being a forum where substantive posts are required in the guidelines.
  - throw1234651234 3y ago
    1. There is nothing imaginative about it. A child throwing out random ideas and copying cool scenes from TV shows at random is not "imaginative". It's made worse when every edgy social-commentary trope is forced in. 2. The biggest offense, of course, is the word "science" in her being labelled a "science fiction" author. A 4th grade understanding of the first chapter of a geology book that is immediately violated is not "science fiction". Of course, I am mainly upset about the destruction of the Nebula Awards by the inclusion of the Fifth Season in the list among authors who actually understand science, computer science, served in the military, and overall have, and further, an understanding of how things work. Jemisin might be on par with that guy who wrote about magic balls catching lightning (Sanderson) in the Stormlight Archive, but neither of them belong on a good science fiction list.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - lemmsjid 3y ago
      On your first point, you have to at least acknowledge that a ton of people strongly disagree with you. I've certainly bounced off of widely read and highly rated novels before, but rarely do I leave with a complete dismissal of the quality of the work. It seems almost personal to you, calling a widely and multiply published author a "child throwing out random ideas". On your second point: The Nebula Awards specifically target "science fiction" and "fantasy" genres. I'm quite widely read in science fiction. I took a look at the list of novels that have won or been finalists for the Nebula Awards. It turns out I've read quite a few of them, scattered over the decades the Nebulas have existed. The Fifth Season is far from the only set of books with fantastical elements to have won, and the ones I've read that have won have plenty of world building elements that would be incorrect by a fourth grade textbook (FTL? Reincarnation? Fire breathing dragons?). Yes, the Game of Thrones novels (a Song of Ice and Fire), though quite excellent, are quite firmly in the realm of fantasy, and they were often Nebula finalists! By your criteria, the Nebula Awards were "destroyed" a long time ago. Several books, including some from the very early years of the Nebula Awards, are now called "science fantasy", i.e. science fiction that leans into fantastical elements. The Fifth Season is actually typically labeled as "science fantasy". If the Fifth Season "destroyed" the Nebula Awards, then you would see more recent winners being almost exclusively science fantasy. I haven't read as many of the newer winners as I have older winners, but two of my favorite novels of recent years won or were finalists: Network Effect by Martha Wells, which is pretty much a core science fiction novel, and Piranesi, by Susanna Clarke, which is even more fantastical than the Broken Earth. One of my favorite recent-years science fiction novels, Children of Time, surprisingly didn't get a Nebula, but it did get a Hugo. Looking at its publishing year though, 2015, I see why! Three Body Problem was nominated, and Annihilation, which I absolutely adore (but can't spell), won that year.
      - throw1234651234 3y ago
        I will acknowledge that people have tastes I don't understand - Children of Time was another collection of filler tripe that contributed nothing to the genre. Definitely put it down when I realized it's "A Deepness in the Sky", without the good parts, just "lol prehistory with spiders." You brought up Martin - he has a passing understanding of history, combat, and was a veteran (aka is somewhat grounded in reality while writing fantasy), which is why Gemisin and Brandenson should not be used in the same sentence with him, and definitely not with Tolkien.
  - muffinman26 3y ago
    I read The Fifth Season and hated it, but she's definitely a real author. I'd be interested if she has any other books that I might like better. My main problems with the story were: - The setting was almost unspeakably brutal, but there seemed to be almost no one interested in fighting those brutal systems. I could understand 1-2 characters being brainwashed to go along with the brutality, or even most, but no one seems to even attempt to go against the system. This made the setting feel unbelievable to me. - There are two big twists at the end of the book. I won't spoil them, but they didn't feel like well-foreshadowed twists. The timelines for the different chapters weren't clear, which made it hard to guess the first, and the 'clues' felt like bad writing mistakes. For the second, the only clue is what words people don't say. The plot also hinges on a misunderstanding of how tsunamis work, but that's forgivable to me.
    - int_19h 3y ago
      For me the biggest problem with that series is that it seems to endorse collective responsibility on a scale massive enough that calling it genocide is a no-brainer. Several times, even.
    - bawolff 3y ago
      I feel like in real life, that's how things work. People mostly accept the brutality of the society they find themselves in, because its normal. Its just in most books people want to focus on the drama. [Mild Spoilers] The fifth season starts with everyone kind of accepting, the characters are chewed up, and they do try to rebel in the end. So its not like there is no rebelling at all. Generally i liked the fifth season, but i think people think its a bit deeper than it actually is. I find le guin to be a bit more nuanced and leave you thinking a bit more. The fifth season felt a bit more: evil people are obviously evil. The other side is i think jemisin has better developed characters than le guin. A lot of le guin (much like a lot of older scifi) feel very much like idea books where character development & plotting came second. If you like those two authors, i would really reccomend Octavia Butler, who i think is a bit similar but better than both (lets see if i start a flamewar ;)
      - muffinman26 3y ago
  - lproven 3y ago
    Nora Jemisin is real. I've met her. I read the first novel of her trilogy. I didn't like it. I have #2 and #3 but I've not bothered. I may never do so.
- TinkersW 3y ago
  Le Guin is better, nothing amazing, but solid. Skip Jemisin, very mediocre.
- bawolff 3y ago
  What is with this condecension? She published books, she is an author. You don't have to like her books, but she's clearly written some.
kjellsbells 3y ago
I loved the Left Hand of Darkness, and hated TWfWiF for the same reasons you cite. Frankly, hero worshipping an author isnt great. Everyone has highs and lows in their creative output. And the cultural milieu that the author is working in plays a part too (how many books about trees being cool, man, got published between 1967 and 1972?) Dont let TWfWiF put you off LeGuin. She had a lot to say that is worthwhile to read.
throwanem 3y ago
The story is 50 years old, and was written less than a decade after the first moon landing. That makes it easy to produce a presentist reading, but not more likely such a reading will be useful. It's also not at all hard sf. That doesn't impugn its value, but does mean that you're not going to get anything out of it if you try to read it like you would The Martian.
- teapot7 3y ago
  It got some criticism for being simplistic at the time it was published. I like and respect Le Guin, but maybe not this one so much.
digging 3y ago
Yeah... I've read all of her so-called "Hainish Cycle" (it's mostly short stories, and they aren't all intentionally connected btw) and consider myself a big fan - I agree TWFWIF is kind of awful. (Although I still felt it had some interesting ideas, like the Creechies' concept of gods as new ways of thinking.) It is an extremely unfortunate first choice of Le Guin to read.
WillAdams 3y ago
It's a bit more interesting in its historical context of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bpxs0c/the_word_for_human_is_violence_my_review_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bpxs0c/the_word_for...
elevaet 3y ago
I think this book was the basis for the Avatar movie. I read it as a teen and really liked it, but you do a great job of poo-pooing it haha.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  I thought Avatar was Pocahontas almost scene by scene.
- lproven 3y ago
  Avatar is a melange. (Pun intentional.) There is TWFWIF, and there's also Poul Anderson's "Call Me Joe" which has the core idea of teleoperator somehow transferring his consciousness into the remote android, and there's some of Pocahontas for the resource-extraction themes – which is also why some called Avatar "Dances with Smurfs" for its references to "Dances with Wolves". ---- The pun here being that "mélange" is both the French for a "mix" or "blend" and also the life- and consciousness-extending drug in Frank Herbert's Dune, which itself is a melange of a SF novel and also a roman à clef of the Great Powers-backed takeover of Arabia by the House of Ibn Saud, in which melange represents oil. Oil is the magical substance plentiful in desert Arabia which enabled long-distance movement for the Great Powers of the West, as melange enabled inter-stellar travel for the Empire in Dune.
ninetyninenine 3y ago
I think it's good for it's time. You have to realize it was the very very first of this genre. It ended up getting copied by fern gully and then james camerons avatar. But this was the very very first of the trope. But I agree when I read it, it wasn't good at all. I recommend "Worlds of exile and illusion" It's really good. The book is one epic story told through the lens of three smaller stories.
troupo 3y ago
I think The Dispossessed is the best book in the Hainish cycle. And possibly the best book out of all LeGuin's books people usually recommend.
- mulderc 3y ago
  It might be my favorite book. I read it during the pandemic and started sending copies to friends as I loved it that much.
  - adbachman 3y ago
    In my top five, too. I have two copies right now, the second is a first edition I found at a free bookstore. I've given one other away, will probably send another with a kid when they move out. It's the dryness, for me. She evokes the setting so clearly and in so few words, it took me by surprise. Also my first exposure to thoughtful anarchist ideas, which has been fun. That and Wizard of Earthsea. Which is as spare, poetic, and strange as any YA magic fiction book wishes it could be.
    - mulderc 3y ago
      I grew up in the Pacific NW, not far from where Le Guin lived, and this book is the clearest picture of the political philosophy of the area I have ever seen. They don't call it the People's Republic of Portland for nothing.
johngossman 3y ago
I’ve read most of her books and Forest is definitely the worst. When she wrote it she was mad about Vietnam and about the environment and it is definitely a rant with paper thin characters. Absolutely not representative. I was shocked how bad after just reading Left Hand of Darkness and Dispossessed.
kgodey 3y ago
My copy of the book has a foreword by Le Guin where she said something along the lines of being very emotional about current day politics (current at the time of writing) when she wrote the book, and that she was not trying to be nuanced. That set my expectations for the book and I was able to enjoy it for what it was. It probably also helped that I knew that writing style wasn't typical for her given that I'd read at least seven other books by her before The Word for World is Forest.
- kgodey 3y ago
  If anyone wants to read the foreword, you should be able to if you click on "read sample" on https://www.amazon.com.au/Word-World-Forest-Ursula-Guin/dp/1399607790 https://www.amazon.com.au/Word-World-Forest-Ursula-Guin/dp/1....
bawolff 3y ago
I haven't read that particular book, but i've read many others by her. I find her novels tend to be either great or terrible (e.g i loved the disposed, left hand of darkness, the beginning place, but hated always coming home and city of illusions). So if you didn't like one novel its definitely possible you might like others. Of course maybe you just don't like her style.

sampo 3y ago

> Are her other books better? Yes. The Word for World is Forest is one of her weakest books.

throw1234651234 3y ago

Is this book in the same vein as "N. K. Jemisin is a real author"? Good to be forewarned.

lemmsjid 3y ago
Jemisin is one of the more visceral and imaginative writers I've encountered in recent years, and she did indeed produce and publish written works, so I do believe she is a real author, yes. I'd certainly be interested in reading and maybe discussing an actual critique, this being a forum where substantive posts are required in the guidelines.
- throw1234651234 3y ago
  1. There is nothing imaginative about it. A child throwing out random ideas and copying cool scenes from TV shows at random is not "imaginative". It's made worse when every edgy social-commentary trope is forced in. 2. The biggest offense, of course, is the word "science" in her being labelled a "science fiction" author. A 4th grade understanding of the first chapter of a geology book that is immediately violated is not "science fiction". Of course, I am mainly upset about the destruction of the Nebula Awards by the inclusion of the Fifth Season in the list among authors who actually understand science, computer science, served in the military, and overall have, and further, an understanding of how things work. Jemisin might be on par with that guy who wrote about magic balls catching lightning (Sanderson) in the Stormlight Archive, but neither of them belong on a good science fiction list.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lemmsjid 3y ago
    On your first point, you have to at least acknowledge that a ton of people strongly disagree with you. I've certainly bounced off of widely read and highly rated novels before, but rarely do I leave with a complete dismissal of the quality of the work. It seems almost personal to you, calling a widely and multiply published author a "child throwing out random ideas". On your second point: The Nebula Awards specifically target "science fiction" and "fantasy" genres. I'm quite widely read in science fiction. I took a look at the list of novels that have won or been finalists for the Nebula Awards. It turns out I've read quite a few of them, scattered over the decades the Nebulas have existed. The Fifth Season is far from the only set of books with fantastical elements to have won, and the ones I've read that have won have plenty of world building elements that would be incorrect by a fourth grade textbook (FTL? Reincarnation? Fire breathing dragons?). Yes, the Game of Thrones novels (a Song of Ice and Fire), though quite excellent, are quite firmly in the realm of fantasy, and they were often Nebula finalists! By your criteria, the Nebula Awards were "destroyed" a long time ago. Several books, including some from the very early years of the Nebula Awards, are now called "science fantasy", i.e. science fiction that leans into fantastical elements. The Fifth Season is actually typically labeled as "science fantasy". If the Fifth Season "destroyed" the Nebula Awards, then you would see more recent winners being almost exclusively science fantasy. I haven't read as many of the newer winners as I have older winners, but two of my favorite novels of recent years won or were finalists: Network Effect by Martha Wells, which is pretty much a core science fiction novel, and Piranesi, by Susanna Clarke, which is even more fantastical than the Broken Earth. One of my favorite recent-years science fiction novels, Children of Time, surprisingly didn't get a Nebula, but it did get a Hugo. Looking at its publishing year though, 2015, I see why! Three Body Problem was nominated, and Annihilation, which I absolutely adore (but can't spell), won that year.
    - throw1234651234 3y ago
      I will acknowledge that people have tastes I don't understand - Children of Time was another collection of filler tripe that contributed nothing to the genre. Definitely put it down when I realized it's "A Deepness in the Sky", without the good parts, just "lol prehistory with spiders." You brought up Martin - he has a passing understanding of history, combat, and was a veteran (aka is somewhat grounded in reality while writing fantasy), which is why Gemisin and Brandenson should not be used in the same sentence with him, and definitely not with Tolkien.
- muffinman26 3y ago
  I read The Fifth Season and hated it, but she's definitely a real author. I'd be interested if she has any other books that I might like better. My main problems with the story were: - The setting was almost unspeakably brutal, but there seemed to be almost no one interested in fighting those brutal systems. I could understand 1-2 characters being brainwashed to go along with the brutality, or even most, but no one seems to even attempt to go against the system. This made the setting feel unbelievable to me. - There are two big twists at the end of the book. I won't spoil them, but they didn't feel like well-foreshadowed twists. The timelines for the different chapters weren't clear, which made it hard to guess the first, and the 'clues' felt like bad writing mistakes. For the second, the only clue is what words people don't say. The plot also hinges on a misunderstanding of how tsunamis work, but that's forgivable to me.
  - int_19h 3y ago
    For me the biggest problem with that series is that it seems to endorse collective responsibility on a scale massive enough that calling it genocide is a no-brainer. Several times, even.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    I feel like in real life, that's how things work. People mostly accept the brutality of the society they find themselves in, because its normal. Its just in most books people want to focus on the drama. [Mild Spoilers] The fifth season starts with everyone kind of accepting, the characters are chewed up, and they do try to rebel in the end. So its not like there is no rebelling at all. Generally i liked the fifth season, but i think people think its a bit deeper than it actually is. I find le guin to be a bit more nuanced and leave you thinking a bit more. The fifth season felt a bit more: evil people are obviously evil. The other side is i think jemisin has better developed characters than le guin. A lot of le guin (much like a lot of older scifi) feel very much like idea books where character development & plotting came second. If you like those two authors, i would really reccomend Octavia Butler, who i think is a bit similar but better than both (lets see if i start a flamewar ;)
    - muffinman26 3y ago
- lproven 3y ago
  Nora Jemisin is real. I've met her. I read the first novel of her trilogy. I didn't like it. I have #2 and #3 but I've not bothered. I may never do so.
TinkersW 3y ago
Le Guin is better, nothing amazing, but solid. Skip Jemisin, very mediocre.
bawolff 3y ago
What is with this condecension? She published books, she is an author. You don't have to like her books, but she's clearly written some.

kjellsbells 3y ago

I loved the Left Hand of Darkness, and hated TWfWiF for the same reasons you cite. Frankly, hero worshipping an author isnt great. Everyone has highs and lows in their creative output. And the cultural milieu that the author is working in plays a part too (how many books about trees being cool, man, got published between 1967 and 1972?) Dont let TWfWiF put you off LeGuin. She had a lot to say that is worthwhile to read.

throwanem 3y ago

The story is 50 years old, and was written less than a decade after the first moon landing. That makes it easy to produce a presentist reading, but not more likely such a reading will be useful. It's also not at all hard sf. That doesn't impugn its value, but does mean that you're not going to get anything out of it if you try to read it like you would The Martian.

teapot7 3y ago
It got some criticism for being simplistic at the time it was published. I like and respect Le Guin, but maybe not this one so much.

digging 3y ago

Yeah... I've read all of her so-called "Hainish Cycle" (it's mostly short stories, and they aren't all intentionally connected btw) and consider myself a big fan - I agree TWFWIF is kind of awful. (Although I still felt it had some interesting ideas, like the Creechies' concept of gods as new ways of thinking.) It is an extremely unfortunate first choice of Le Guin to read.

WillAdams 3y ago

It's a bit more interesting in its historical context of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bpxs0c/the_word_for_human_is_violence_my_review_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bpxs0c/the_word_for...

elevaet 3y ago

I think this book was the basis for the Avatar movie. I read it as a teen and really liked it, but you do a great job of poo-pooing it haha.

ajmurmann 3y ago
I thought Avatar was Pocahontas almost scene by scene.
lproven 3y ago
Avatar is a melange. (Pun intentional.) There is TWFWIF, and there's also Poul Anderson's "Call Me Joe" which has the core idea of teleoperator somehow transferring his consciousness into the remote android, and there's some of Pocahontas for the resource-extraction themes – which is also why some called Avatar "Dances with Smurfs" for its references to "Dances with Wolves". ---- The pun here being that "mélange" is both the French for a "mix" or "blend" and also the life- and consciousness-extending drug in Frank Herbert's Dune, which itself is a melange of a SF novel and also a roman à clef of the Great Powers-backed takeover of Arabia by the House of Ibn Saud, in which melange represents oil. Oil is the magical substance plentiful in desert Arabia which enabled long-distance movement for the Great Powers of the West, as melange enabled inter-stellar travel for the Empire in Dune.

ninetyninenine 3y ago

I think it's good for it's time. You have to realize it was the very very first of this genre. It ended up getting copied by fern gully and then james camerons avatar. But this was the very very first of the trope. But I agree when I read it, it wasn't good at all. I recommend "Worlds of exile and illusion" It's really good. The book is one epic story told through the lens of three smaller stories.

troupo 3y ago

I think The Dispossessed is the best book in the Hainish cycle. And possibly the best book out of all LeGuin's books people usually recommend.

mulderc 3y ago
It might be my favorite book. I read it during the pandemic and started sending copies to friends as I loved it that much.
- adbachman 3y ago
  In my top five, too. I have two copies right now, the second is a first edition I found at a free bookstore. I've given one other away, will probably send another with a kid when they move out. It's the dryness, for me. She evokes the setting so clearly and in so few words, it took me by surprise. Also my first exposure to thoughtful anarchist ideas, which has been fun. That and Wizard of Earthsea. Which is as spare, poetic, and strange as any YA magic fiction book wishes it could be.
  - mulderc 3y ago
    I grew up in the Pacific NW, not far from where Le Guin lived, and this book is the clearest picture of the political philosophy of the area I have ever seen. They don't call it the People's Republic of Portland for nothing.

johngossman 3y ago

I’ve read most of her books and Forest is definitely the worst. When she wrote it she was mad about Vietnam and about the environment and it is definitely a rant with paper thin characters. Absolutely not representative. I was shocked how bad after just reading Left Hand of Darkness and Dispossessed.

kgodey 3y ago

My copy of the book has a foreword by Le Guin where she said something along the lines of being very emotional about current day politics (current at the time of writing) when she wrote the book, and that she was not trying to be nuanced. That set my expectations for the book and I was able to enjoy it for what it was. It probably also helped that I knew that writing style wasn't typical for her given that I'd read at least seven other books by her before The Word for World is Forest.

kgodey 3y ago
If anyone wants to read the foreword, you should be able to if you click on "read sample" on https://www.amazon.com.au/Word-World-Forest-Ursula-Guin/dp/1399607790 https://www.amazon.com.au/Word-World-Forest-Ursula-Guin/dp/1....

bawolff 3y ago

I haven't read that particular book, but i've read many others by her. I find her novels tend to be either great or terrible (e.g i loved the disposed, left hand of darkness, the beginning place, but hated always coming home and city of illusions). So if you didn't like one novel its definitely possible you might like others. Of course maybe you just don't like her style.