4 ms·

Ultra-Orthodox Jews to Hold Big Meeting on Internet Risks

17 points by iProject 14y ago

jk215 14y ago
Setting regulations you want your own community to abide by is fine and dandy. That sounds like what they are doing. The minute you try to expand those on everyone else is when you need to shut the fuck up. Just stay away from that line ultra-orthodox jews and you will be fine.
- rmc 14y ago
  Yes in principle, however it doesn't give a group carte blanche to do what it wants within its own community. E.g we/society should disprove if they want to tell all their kids that they should not be gay (since some of their kids might be gay). Just because they aren't trying to get everyone else to say the same thing to their kids doesn't meab doing that is ok. In short, "yes, but"
- officialchicken 14y ago
  The hasids are definitely against integration with society as a whole. Here's a recent example about putting signs up for women and men to NOT be on the same side of the street. http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewalks_2011_10_14_bk.html http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewa...
tokenizer 14y ago
Some people are scared of information, scared of facts and ideas. While I think the internet is filled mostly with petty arguments and cat pictures, this lends to the evidence that the internet is a source of power.
- joshu 14y ago
  I agree. I also think the internet is dangerous, if you haven't got good information hygiene and a proper information immune system going. I'm serious.
sohn 14y ago
lol jews did wtc
- rmc 14y ago
  This is a racist and vile comment that has no place in civil society or hackernews. Please leave.
  - zerostar07 14y ago
    This is exactly the kind of censorship we are talking about. Attack the comment, not the man
    - rmc 14y ago
      What? Who is we? HN is not a "say what ever you want" zone. There are community guidelines. If you don't like it, this sit itsnt for you.
    - sukuriant 14y ago
      It is equally within a person's right to say "please leave", as he did not like the comment.
xal 14y ago
It's fine that they want to figure out what the internet means for them, as long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others. Given that they haven't even managed to will themselves into basic decency towards their own women I have my doubts here.
- freshhawk 14y ago
  > as long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others I got the impression they had figured out what the internet means for them for the most part. This meeting is to figure out how best to "help" those poor people suffering from too much free speech and information. The statistics showing a strong inverse correlation between access to information and church attendance/religious belief has not been lost on church leaders of all faiths. What can be done about it is a pretty major subject of discussion right now (What should be done is already decided, whatever needs to be done to stop people leaving churches, there are souls at stake, all else is secondary)
zerostar07 14y ago
It's a good thing that with the Pirate parties growing across the world, people are going to be better informed about the importance of freedom in information exchange.
- neuroelectronic 14y ago
  I have a feeling Orthodox Jews don't feel the same way.
lupatus 14y ago
Something interesting to think about: The Amish not only heavily restrict their member's Internet access, but commonly eschew the Internet altogether. According to the 2010 census, there were 249000 Amish in the USA [1] and their population is doubling at the rate of about every 14 years. If you suppose that they will maintain that birth rate (which it seems likely to me that they will because they maintained about that birth throughout the past 100+ years of societal and technological development), and you simply extrapolate that out (which has its own merits and demerits, I know), you get about 1.6 billion Amish by the end of the century [2]. Regardless of whether or not the Amish grow to be just that large of a group, it seems to me that they will substantial demographic in the USA during the latter half of the 21st Century. What will a voting block that big in the USA do with things like Internet regulation? How soon until Google Translate supports Pennsylvania Deutsch as a language option? When will we see HN discussing startups targeting the Amish market? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish [2]Year Amish Population 2010 249000 2024 498000 2038 996000 2052 1992000 2066 3984000 2080 7968000 2094 15936000 Edit: Updated for formatting
- scott_s 14y ago
  I find it extraordinarily unlikely because of the Amish's lifestyle. The Amish do not eschew technology because they think it is evil. They have, actually, adopted some modern technology in their communities with restricted access. They eschew technology because they rationally recognize that adopting it will significantly change their lifestyle. The kind of population increases you're talking about would require them to have cities - they would need communities with greater density. Individuals would also have to start specializing in much the same way modern cities do. That's the sort of thing they do not want. Something would have to give. If such an expansion of their population happened, they would not be recognizably "Amish" anymore.
  - lupatus 14y ago
    At first glance, my reaction was also, "No way, not happening." But, I know some Amish and former-Amish personally and can attest that they think it is part of their Christian duty to "be fruitful and multiply." I also know that they are busy establishing new colonies in unconventional locations like Alaska. Additionally, they are branching into non-agrarian businesses like construction and furniture in order to support their large families. With the population of the USA mostly moving to urban areas, the prices of farmland and rural real estate has been dropping. In some regions, the Amish are already scooping that up. What I wonder is if the Amish will continue to let us "English" develop whatever technologies that we want or if they will impose restrictive regulations. It could be very strange if Kurzweil's Singularity comes in 2050, but a large chunk of the population is living as if it were 1850 and just ignores the Singularity.
coldarchon 14y ago
Tell them the truth about chip production and that meeting could become a hysterical stampede. There is no transistor or chip or motherboard in the world that was not in touch with gelatin made of pig meat. And they are exclusively produced in countries where pigs are a symbol of luck and wealth.
ShabbyDoo 14y ago
Anyone here who self-identifies as an ultra-orthodox Jew who can explain concerns about the internet in the context of his own belief system?
dannyc 14y ago
To understand what the ultra-orthodox have against the internet you must first understand the ultra-orthodox. (I am NOT ultra-orthodox, but understand them well.) 1) Time waster: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's believe that it's Gods will to study Torah for as much time as possible. --Internet usage very easily turns into a a huge time waster. How many times have you found yourselves hours later in the same spot reading a blog or youtube video which you had no intention to see when you sat down at the computer? "Just one more link...", "Just one more video..". 2) Smut: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's aspire to purity of thought and vision. --Fact- The Internet is FULL of easy to access smut from the privacy and anonymity of your home. 3) Womens attire: Have you ever seen how Ultra-orthodox women dress? That's right, they cover their hair with a hat or wig, wear long skirts, stockings and long sleeves even in the summer. Ultra-orthodox Jews believe it's inappropriate to gaze at women especially if they are not dressed according to their standards. --News flash- women of the world don't dress like that. The internet is full of pictures, and unsurprisingly, the women in them are not blurred out. 4) Values: Ultra-orthodox are very insular. They stubbornly attempt to maintain their traditional values and educate their children with those values, many of which are not in tandem with the values of society at large. --The internet is place where ideas and values are freely expressed. While generally thought of as a good thing- Ultra-Orthodox Jews see this as a risk since it is a place where they cannot control the education given to their children. Of those points I think only point 4 could be the basis for a strong counter-argument. An alternative solution would be to expose their children to all freedoms of expression the internet has to offer and to explain why they feel their own point-of-view is correct. But to do that they will still need to figure out how to address points 1-3. As the article stated the idea is to make people aware of the risks that unrestricted access to the Internet poses both to adults and to children. And to give them tools and ideas how to live with (or without) the internet in a effective and safe way. Internet addiction is a real thing as are the risks to children (not just Ultra-Orthodox Jew's children.) The purpose here is not to limit internet usage in the world or to impose a national censor but to protect their own community from the risks they see as evident.

17 points by iProject 14y ago

jk215 14y ago

Setting regulations you want your own community to abide by is fine and dandy. That sounds like what they are doing. The minute you try to expand those on everyone else is when you need to shut the fuck up. Just stay away from that line ultra-orthodox jews and you will be fine.

rmc 14y ago
Yes in principle, however it doesn't give a group carte blanche to do what it wants within its own community. E.g we/society should disprove if they want to tell all their kids that they should not be gay (since some of their kids might be gay). Just because they aren't trying to get everyone else to say the same thing to their kids doesn't meab doing that is ok. In short, "yes, but"
officialchicken 14y ago
The hasids are definitely against integration with society as a whole. Here's a recent example about putting signs up for women and men to NOT be on the same side of the street. http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewalks_2011_10_14_bk.html http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/34/41/dtg_hasidicsidewa...

tokenizer 14y ago

Some people are scared of information, scared of facts and ideas. While I think the internet is filled mostly with petty arguments and cat pictures, this lends to the evidence that the internet is a source of power.

joshu 14y ago
I agree. I also think the internet is dangerous, if you haven't got good information hygiene and a proper information immune system going. I'm serious.

sohn 14y ago

lol jews did wtc

rmc 14y ago
This is a racist and vile comment that has no place in civil society or hackernews. Please leave.
- zerostar07 14y ago
  This is exactly the kind of censorship we are talking about. Attack the comment, not the man
  - rmc 14y ago
    What? Who is we? HN is not a "say what ever you want" zone. There are community guidelines. If you don't like it, this sit itsnt for you.
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    It is equally within a person's right to say "please leave", as he did not like the comment.

xal 14y ago

It's fine that they want to figure out what the internet means for them, as long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others. Given that they haven't even managed to will themselves into basic decency towards their own women I have my doubts here.

freshhawk 14y ago
> as long as they are not going to try to impose those positions unto others I got the impression they had figured out what the internet means for them for the most part. This meeting is to figure out how best to "help" those poor people suffering from too much free speech and information. The statistics showing a strong inverse correlation between access to information and church attendance/religious belief has not been lost on church leaders of all faiths. What can be done about it is a pretty major subject of discussion right now (What should be done is already decided, whatever needs to be done to stop people leaving churches, there are souls at stake, all else is secondary)

zerostar07 14y ago

It's a good thing that with the Pirate parties growing across the world, people are going to be better informed about the importance of freedom in information exchange.

neuroelectronic 14y ago
I have a feeling Orthodox Jews don't feel the same way.

lupatus 14y ago

Something interesting to think about: The Amish not only heavily restrict their member's Internet access, but commonly eschew the Internet altogether. According to the 2010 census, there were 249000 Amish in the USA [1] and their population is doubling at the rate of about every 14 years. If you suppose that they will maintain that birth rate (which it seems likely to me that they will because they maintained about that birth throughout the past 100+ years of societal and technological development), and you simply extrapolate that out (which has its own merits and demerits, I know), you get about 1.6 billion Amish by the end of the century [2]. Regardless of whether or not the Amish grow to be just that large of a group, it seems to me that they will substantial demographic in the USA during the latter half of the 21st Century. What will a voting block that big in the USA do with things like Internet regulation? How soon until Google Translate supports Pennsylvania Deutsch as a language option? When will we see HN discussing startups targeting the Amish market? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish [2]Year Amish Population 2010 249000 2024 498000 2038 996000 2052 1992000 2066 3984000 2080 7968000 2094 15936000 Edit: Updated for formatting

scott_s 14y ago
I find it extraordinarily unlikely because of the Amish's lifestyle. The Amish do not eschew technology because they think it is evil. They have, actually, adopted some modern technology in their communities with restricted access. They eschew technology because they rationally recognize that adopting it will significantly change their lifestyle. The kind of population increases you're talking about would require them to have cities - they would need communities with greater density. Individuals would also have to start specializing in much the same way modern cities do. That's the sort of thing they do not want. Something would have to give. If such an expansion of their population happened, they would not be recognizably "Amish" anymore.
- lupatus 14y ago
  At first glance, my reaction was also, "No way, not happening." But, I know some Amish and former-Amish personally and can attest that they think it is part of their Christian duty to "be fruitful and multiply." I also know that they are busy establishing new colonies in unconventional locations like Alaska. Additionally, they are branching into non-agrarian businesses like construction and furniture in order to support their large families. With the population of the USA mostly moving to urban areas, the prices of farmland and rural real estate has been dropping. In some regions, the Amish are already scooping that up. What I wonder is if the Amish will continue to let us "English" develop whatever technologies that we want or if they will impose restrictive regulations. It could be very strange if Kurzweil's Singularity comes in 2050, but a large chunk of the population is living as if it were 1850 and just ignores the Singularity.

coldarchon 14y ago

Tell them the truth about chip production and that meeting could become a hysterical stampede. There is no transistor or chip or motherboard in the world that was not in touch with gelatin made of pig meat. And they are exclusively produced in countries where pigs are a symbol of luck and wealth.

ShabbyDoo 14y ago

Anyone here who self-identifies as an ultra-orthodox Jew who can explain concerns about the internet in the context of his own belief system?

dannyc 14y ago

To understand what the ultra-orthodox have against the internet you must first understand the ultra-orthodox. (I am NOT ultra-orthodox, but understand them well.) 1) Time waster: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's believe that it's Gods will to study Torah for as much time as possible. --Internet usage very easily turns into a a huge time waster. How many times have you found yourselves hours later in the same spot reading a blog or youtube video which you had no intention to see when you sat down at the computer? "Just one more link...", "Just one more video..". 2) Smut: Ultra-Orthodox Jew's aspire to purity of thought and vision. --Fact- The Internet is FULL of easy to access smut from the privacy and anonymity of your home. 3) Womens attire: Have you ever seen how Ultra-orthodox women dress? That's right, they cover their hair with a hat or wig, wear long skirts, stockings and long sleeves even in the summer. Ultra-orthodox Jews believe it's inappropriate to gaze at women especially if they are not dressed according to their standards. --News flash- women of the world don't dress like that. The internet is full of pictures, and unsurprisingly, the women in them are not blurred out. 4) Values: Ultra-orthodox are very insular. They stubbornly attempt to maintain their traditional values and educate their children with those values, many of which are not in tandem with the values of society at large. --The internet is place where ideas and values are freely expressed. While generally thought of as a good thing- Ultra-Orthodox Jews see this as a risk since it is a place where they cannot control the education given to their children. Of those points I think only point 4 could be the basis for a strong counter-argument. An alternative solution would be to expose their children to all freedoms of expression the internet has to offer and to explain why they feel their own point-of-view is correct. But to do that they will still need to figure out how to address points 1-3. As the article stated the idea is to make people aware of the risks that unrestricted access to the Internet poses both to adults and to children. And to give them tools and ideas how to live with (or without) the internet in a effective and safe way. Internet addiction is a real thing as are the risks to children (not just Ultra-Orthodox Jew's children.) The purpose here is not to limit internet usage in the world or to impose a national censor but to protect their own community from the risks they see as evident.