15 ms·

Reading more Ursula Le Guin (2019)

178 points by Munksgaard 2y ago

galaxyLogic 2y ago
How does Earthsea -trilogy compare to Harry Potter? What I hate about Potter is that they play every day on Spectrum TV. Every day. And I'm paying for that.
- creer 2y ago
  You are not at any risk of running into Earthsea every day, that's for sure. Potter is a goofy lightning speed read. Much of it doesn't even make sense (see Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality for a take on that.) Some people claim here that Earthsea is aimed at young adults. It's readable by young adults but it's far too slow and calm to be of much interest to most young adults. And there is much more to be found in there by older readers. No, Earthsea's 6 books plus short stories are a peaceful but sometimes intense, slow, poetic and extremely emotion inducing view of the life of the main wizard character. From young wizard seeking his education in A Wizard of Earthsea, through questing, failing magic, retirement and return of the ex-wizard - and a few tales of other wizards in the same world; plus the old wizard and settling accounts. Magic in Earthsea is not used lightly (at least not by the main character). It is largely about knowing the true name of things. The hero sees the many problems of the world but does not rush to wand them away. Magic is not day to day housekeeping spells and conveniences and practical jokes - but can be applied to influence things that matter. Earthsea as a whole is a masterpiece. For a third direction to magic, I always include The Magicians (the book trilogy although the first couple TV seasons are also good) where we have magic as a highly unstable and poorly controlled field of ... physics or something - being taught to angst-ridden but also very sure of themselves teens by instructors who know that this stuff will kill you if you half glance away. And it does. But that same unstable high-power stuff is also the literal gate to entire other worlds - equally irresistible to our, ermmmm, heroes? Just as the language for Earthsea is spot-on, so is the writing style for The Magicians fitting for these completely different characters and genre of magic. The Magicians is a masterpiece.
  - galaxyLogic 2y ago
    Great explanation thanks. If Earthsea was by Marvel we would surely see "Harry Potter meets Wizard of EarthSea" in theaters soon. :-)
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
>Questioning the spear’s phallic, murderous logic, How many more years before the ideas of Freud are so removed from common usage that we no longer have to deal with their detritus. I figure another 20-30. on edit: maybe irritating me more than normal as I recently listened to a podcast where it was all about how, despite nobody believing Freud anymore, he was just so important and central that all ideas related to his incorrect ideas.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  It's quite interesting how much weight humans give to old ideas. Probably a Lindy heuristic. But, man, imagine if I was early to that field and made it so that we had to conceive of all doors as being vaginal (constant testaments to women's obsession with their genitals). Do women like putting things in the trash bin because they have penis envy and want to experience putting a sword in a sheath, so to speak? Why do wives like tidying up? Is it because they like putting things in cubbies, simulating the sex experience? Wholesale trash thought. Man, even a mildly intelligent teenager has surpassed this level of free-association. But the age of the concept and its Barnum effect explanatory behaviour makes it the home of every mediocre mind. The only risk, I suppose, is that if we end this obvious sign, we remove a clear signal of sophomoric thought.
  - lfmunoz4 2y ago
    You can't prove it either way, people are complex and who is to say what sort of associations people have or used to have inside their head. The simple fact is that when Freud was coming out with his ideas they were new they were original. Most of anything we read is recycled. Having a single original idea is incredible and he had many that maybe wrong but eventually did lead to some right ideas.
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      Oh, indeed, I am a big fan of people being wrong in novel ways that open up new ways of thought. Much of the old philosophers is really their exploration of the space. Searching means looking in the wrong place most of the time. My problem is with those who came after and keep looking in some old place where there is nothing left to find.
timvdalen 2y ago
I recently read A Wizard of Earthsea, and it took me a really long time to get through. Here's what I noted down after reading it: I can see why (and how) this book is important and good, but it just took me so much active effort to keep reading it.
- asyx 2y ago
  Earthsea reads like the boring retelling of a great story.
  - jpm_sd 2y ago
    That's funny, my favorite thing about her writing is the calm, quiet narrative style. Kind of the opposite of the Brando Sando approach.
    - jodrellblank 2y ago
      The calm writing style of John Wyndham is something I like about his stories. Not much in the way of action or excitement, no vast space opera with many winding threads. World changing ideas, writ small. Trouble with Lichen is about the discovery of a genuine anti-ageing compound, but we don't see anyone super old or the social consequences. We see the people who discover it and what they choose to do next. The Outward Urge is a family with several generations of spacemen in it. Nothing really happens, we see a few snapshots of their lives through the decades as human activity out in the solar system increases. The Midwitch Cuckoos is perhaps the most unexcitingly told story of its kind (no spoilers) but not worse for it. Web is a nice weaving of ancient curse and modern (1950s) civilisation into an imminent end of the world.
- spaced-out 2y ago
  I feel exactly the same way. The Dispossessed was both one of the best and one of the most boring books I've ever read. There are a lot of things I appreciate about it and I'm glad I read it, but damn was it a slog to get through.
goostavos 2y ago
How timely. I just finished reading The Word for World is Forest last night. Nobody likes a poo-pooer, but, holy moly, I thought it was unbelievable trash. Are her other books better? This one was "noble savages: the book". The Creechies can't even conceive of inter-species murder until Big Bad Comic Book Evil Guy (who just loves being evil) introduces it. The creechies don't know evil. They settle their disputes as all superior noble people would: through art. I probably just got in my own way while reading. There was a lot of "wait.. they're sending _wood_ through interstellar space?". They have an ecology that can support a supply chain that produces food in excess to perform 40+ year round trips through space, but... they can't grow a tree? A tomato plant? Sure. A tree? Nah. It might be a good kids book, if not for all the... raping.
- sampo 2y ago
  > Are her other books better? Yes. The Word for World is Forest is one of her weakest books.
- throw1234651234 2y ago
  Is this book in the same vein as "N. K. Jemisin is a real author"? Good to be forewarned.
  - lemmsjid 2y ago
    Jemisin is one of the more visceral and imaginative writers I've encountered in recent years, and she did indeed produce and publish written works, so I do believe she is a real author, yes. I'd certainly be interested in reading and maybe discussing an actual critique, this being a forum where substantive posts are required in the guidelines.
    - throw1234651234 2y ago
      1. There is nothing imaginative about it. A child throwing out random ideas and copying cool scenes from TV shows at random is not "imaginative". It's made worse when every edgy social-commentary trope is forced in. 2. The biggest offense, of course, is the word "science" in her being labelled a "science fiction" author. A 4th grade understanding of the first chapter of a geology book that is immediately violated is not "science fiction". Of course, I am mainly upset about the destruction of the Nebula Awards by the inclusion of the Fifth Season in the list among authors who actually understand science, computer science, served in the military, and overall have, and further, an understanding of how things work. Jemisin might be on par with that guy who wrote about magic balls catching lightning (Sanderson) in the Stormlight Archive, but neither of them belong on a good science fiction list.
datadrivenangel 2y ago
Le Guin is a fantastic writer. The Lathe of Heaven, The Left Hand of Darkness, and the Eye of the Heron are all excellent and thought provoking novels among Le Guin's other works.
- gertlex 2y ago
  Curious: do you include Earthsea novels in that tier? Maybe it was just me not trying hard enough at the time (a decade+ ago); I wanted to read LHoD but couldn't get my hands on it. I know it's now available as an ebook more easily, but I remain a bit peeved about how it was the one thing I couldn't buy legitimately at the time. That combined with not enjoying Earthsea (I read two or three books?), makes me biased to keep reading any online recommendations but Le Guin.
  - edanm 2y ago
    I liked The Left Hand of Darkness and loved The Dispossessed. I didn't like the first Earthsea novel and haven't read any others. I suspect it's a book that tends to work better for young readers, or older readers nostalgic for things they read in their youth.
  - drivers99 2y ago
    > I wanted to read LHoD but couldn't get my hands on it. [...] it was the one thing I couldn't buy legitimately at the time It's currently available in paperback.
  - ska 2y ago
    Earthsea was written targeted for children/youth; it’s the same author but in a different register so you may find you enjoy her other stuff more?
  - apignotti 2y ago
    I consider 'Left Hand Of Darkness' to be the single book that resonated the most with me, with 'The Dispossessed' being my previous favorite. On the other hand I was very disappointed from 'A Wizard Of Heartsea'.
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pkkim 2y ago
I want to plug one of her lesser known books, Always Coming Home. It's set among a tribe of people living in the Bay Area way, way after some apocalypse has erased the memory of our civilization. Much of the book is reports from an anthropologist studying the people. I think a lot of her books are about how many different ways of life and types of society and culture are possible, and this book is one of her best at bringing you in to another culture.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I love that book too, maybe my favorite by her, but have found it to be a polarizing recommendation. It's a very unusual format (the novel is interspersed with creation myths, plays, songs, recipes, etc of the people of the setting) and some people just immediately dislike it. I also think in some important ways it is not as narratively strong as her best works, a necessary tradeoff for what it does accomplish. It's very interesting to consider her being raised by an anthropologist, and her exceptional childhood exposure to Ishi, whom her father had known and her mother and brother separately wrote books about. A thread running through all of her books is a deep human interest in the ways of peoples, and how their stories about themselves shape who they are and their relationship to a changing world. Always Coming Home is the book of her that is most, almost exclusively, focused on these concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi_in_Two_Worlds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi_in_Two_Worlds
- creer 2y ago
  It's very atypical for her - and I think she recognized that. Yes, an ambitious work of anthropology through fiction, illustrating how "tribal" works?
- sunshowers 2y ago
  I love Always Coming Home so much. It's so rich and creative. For a shorter story (~50 pages), I'd highly recommend Paradises Lost by her. Many people have written stories about generation ships, but this one is absolutely stunning and truly marvelous.
- m3talsmith 2y ago
abdullahkhalids 2y ago
One of the great tragedies of our time is that collectively humans have stopped imagining alternate socio-economic-political systems. In the few hundred years before 1990, there was a lot of imagination of what could be, and many of those systems were attempted. But since then, it seems everywhere we are stuck. Reading Ursula Le Guin's work is essential because she boldly tries to re-imagine. Not to say any of her fictional worlds should be made reality, but that we need to do serious intellectual work going forward. Surely, humans have explored a few tiny dots in the space of all possible socio-economic-political systems.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
  'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism'
  - abdullahkhalids 2y ago
    > We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable – but then, so did the divine right of kings. Ursula K Le Guin [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/20/ursula-k-le-guin-national-book-awards-speech https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/20/ursula-k-le-gu...
    - 7thaccount 2y ago
      I was literally just thinking of this quote 15 minutes ago. Weird to see it at the top of HN. Capitalism seems to work better than the systems we've tried in the recent past (communism and feudalism are obviously worse in my eyes due to reduced freedom and the huge amounts of life lost in both Russia and China under these systems) , but it's obviously far from perfect. I'm not sure what could be done better, but Le Guin reminds me it's possible to think of alternatives. Speaking of alternative ideas..Chesterton was critical of both communism and capitalism. He proposed something that was intriguing and involved focusing on smaller local communities. I'm not sure how it could work towards technological advancement though which in my eyes is important. It seems to have had some popularity with certain Christian movements in the past century. The concept that ownership of the economy shouldn't be concentrated into a small group of people or corporations makes sense to me, but I don't see a way to make that work economically in modern times. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism Regardless, I'm really interested in these kinds of niche ideas if anyone has others to share.
aquir 2y ago
She is my favourite Sci-Fi writer! Her works like the Dispossessed and the Left Hand of Darkness are true masterpieces! She wouldn’t like mw to call her Sci-Fi writer she called herself a speculative fiction writer. The fact that she was a woman gave a really new point of view to her writings.
creer 2y ago
The article gives a reading of Ursula Le Guin that falls from one merely political way to see the world (conquest) into another (global warming and human hubris) - plus a heavy dose of corresponding judgementality. To me Ursula Le Guin's books are different still: I see them mostly as prompts for my emotion and as people living their life. One's life is only loosely tied to the political thought or environment around us. We are allowed to make our life one and the same in a political militant fashion but that is an option, a choice. We don't have to. In the books, we are presented worlds (often through the character growing up in it) and then we are presented the characters trajectories through them. Many sci-fi writers want to present political ideas through created worlds, of course. That is not Ursula Le Guin's dominion. And her worlds are certainly not reaching for "free from harm"! Where in the world does that one come from?! What I read them for: 1) I love that many of her characters are paying attention. They are not simply surviving passively in the sense of always reacting and living past the current hardship. They are also not just as mindlessly choosing militant action or conquest. 2) I love above all the writing style. Immensely calm. And the language: poetic, smooth and emotion-prompting. Ursula Le Guin stands out for me in that direction. Perfect tone is rare, instilling emotion in me to this degree is very rare. Just as The Magicians is written in a style that perfectly matches teen angst (as opposed to Harry Potter.) And I note that Ursula Le Guin's teens usually don't have much angst - unrealistically so - and I'm fine with that - the rest makes up for it. I highly recommend these books - but certainly not as the one major source of political creativity.
- worik 2y ago
  > but certainly not as the one major source of political creativity. Yes. But certainly as one major source of political creativity. Sympathetic criticism of anarchist thinking (The Disposesd) was most welcome
  - creer 2y ago
    And that's just one book . That one book did find its audience, that's for sure! No contest there! That makes it tempting to judge her entire work through that lens. And that one book is as prominent as The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress: one title that comes up again and again to illustrate political thought / utopias / distopias. By contrast, the Earthsea cycle ended up with 6 books and a few short stories. And Always Coming Home was a massive project.
hannofcart 2y ago
I read ULG's 'The Dispossessed' and while the writing is great, it more feels like social commentary with a mild flavour of sci-fi. I suppose am struggling to articulate this better. To give you a contrast, take Arthur C Clarke, a contemporary of hers. Consider his book 'A Fall of Moondust' (one of my favourites). In ACC's book, there is some core peculiarity of the fundamental nature of the world that the story is entirely based on. The possibilities stemming from that one oddity is interesting from a scientific perspective. Having said that, the characters in that book are nothing to write home about. They serve the necessary function for the plot but nothing too memorable. ULG's plot on the other hand has no distinctive scientifically interesting peculiarity that it seems to be built on. It might as well have occurred on Earth just as it does in 'Anarres' or 'Urras'. It feels like ULG's book is more about people/political theory/social commentary/human condition than any scientifically intriguing theory. It's still a good read I guess, but it didn't scratch my sci-fi itch.
- bawolff 2y ago
  I feel like the core idea of sci-fi is - imagine the world, but with some specific thing different. What would the consequences be? Le guin does it with social issues. Someone like Greg Egan does it with laws of physics. The formula is both oddly similar yet totally different. P.s. i'm not sure i would consider Clarke exactly a contemporary of Le Guin. They certainly heavily overlap, but i think Clarke kind of belongs to the previous generation - at least stylistically wise.
- the_af 2y ago
  > It feels like ULG's book is more about people/political theory/social commentary/human condition than any scientifically intriguing theory. Agreed that on the spectrum of politics/society to scientific theory/gizmo, Le Guin leans heavily towards politics/society. Whether that is one's cup of tea is a different matter. It sometimes is for me, and sometimes not; depends on the mood. For an author who was also into societal issues, I prefer James Tiptree Jr (Alice Sheldon), because she injected more of the alienness/weirdness I tend to seek when reading scifi. I do like Ursula, don't get me wrong! I'm just not always in the mood for reading her, while I'm almost always in the mood to read more James Tiptree Jr! (On that note, I just realized back in 2019 they renamed the "James Tiptree Jr Award" to "Otherwise", for disappointing reasons. Oh, well)
kaycebasques 2y ago
Was just talking to a colleague about The Dispossessed. That book never did it for me. Left Of Hand Of Darkness on the other, erm, hand... wow. Fascinating premise. UKLG also did an interpretation of the Tao Te Ching that is worth a slow, contemplative readthrough.
- rgovostes 2y ago
  I had the inverse take. Read Dispossessed and thought the commentary was insightful, so I followed it with LHOD, but I felt like the points it makes about gender roles are blunted by the passage of 55 years, more so than points about capitalism. I am pretty sure I missed most of the ways she tries to contrast the Gethenians against our own society.
jokethrowaway 2y ago
I find Le Guin to write interesting explorations but this article is pure political propaganda. We should all be reading more Ayn Rand
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Rand was a shitty writer though which makes a huge difference it turns out.
  - Squeeeez 2y ago
    How many great ideas have been published by horrible writers, and thus overlooked by the whole world?
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      Nowhere near as many as haven't been published by brilliant people toiling in obscure penury for their mere survival.
- int_19h 2y ago
  If you want to read something actually interesting on the subject of a right-libertarian utopia, Heinlein (Moon is a Harsh Mistress) is where it at. That book can actually be an interesting pairing with The Dispossessed, as both aren't shy of showcasing the downsides of the ideas they put on the pedestal. Ayn Rand is neither a good writer nor a good ideologue.
- deleted 2y ago
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MeImCounting 2y ago
In my opinion, Le Guin, Butler and more recently authors like Chambers all live in the same sphere of speculative fiction or "sci fi" if you like that is in complete opposition to Clark, Weir and others which have dominated the genre for a long time now. These stories are less about some interesting imaginary application of physics or the unknown in a vast mechanistic universe and more about how society and individuals relate and imagining the infinite ways these two forces can interact. Often the backdrop is secondary to the exploration of the characters and the society they live in. I think this type of story is really fundamental to our progress as a society and we should all talk more about these authors and the stories they told/tell. It makes me happy to see Le Guin talked about, critiqued and praised on HN today. I think this is the talk where Le Guin talks about the continuity of this type of story telling and contrasts it with hard sci fi. Definitely worth a listen IMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PI1xwT2-74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PI1xwT2-74
- FredPret 2y ago
  On the topic of alternative systems - Daniel Suarez wrote the excellent two books Daemon and Freedom (TM). MINOR SPOILER It describes an AI / algorithmic form of government that probably would never work but is interesting to think about and makes for great fiction
  - MeImCounting 2y ago
    Well really I think that technology and societal/economic structures are deeply related in ways that dont necessarily get enough consideration in many discussions on the topic. For instance our current most successful form of capitalism is enabled primarily by the technologies created in the industrial revolution allowing shipping of goods and services long distances. We have seen it change rapidly and deeply as we developed telephony and computers and I suspect as new and better forms of communication and transportation evolve we will see further evolution of the basic system. Unknown technologies or applications of the future will likely cause further evolution and possibly revolution in how we structure our economic and social structures and I think its both fascinating and important to think and talk about these things! My pet favorite is the anarchic utopia of the Culture from Ian M Banks' Culture novels. Obviously impossible without the near infinite processing, energy and matter resources enabled by the Minds and the Ships they control but still fun to think about (and even aspire to value-wise in many cases IMO)
hotdogscout 2y ago
The credentialism that permeates discussion in Bolshevik adjacent circles annoys me deeply. Famous political authors that sold a lot of books don't bring any more credentials to an idea than if I said something in a 4chan post. Argue with the ideas you got from the author, don't keep using them like a religious figure! So many comments here are just quoting things without pondering if it's bullshit. Sometimes it is! For irony and fun here's a quote from PhD dropout Natalie Wynn: There’s also a certain amount of genuine leftist bullshit passing itself off as scholarship. I was once in a comparative literature seminar that I foolishly took in the hopes of getting to read something written with a decent prose style, or at least something by an emotionally competent human being. Boy was I disappointed when on the first day the professor made two allusions to “my good friend Derrida.” Those are quotation marks around “my good friend” because he mentioned that Derrida was his friend every time it came up. Pass the cyanide, honey. Anyway, the low point of this guy’s endless, beginningless, argument-free impromptu lectures came when he baldly asserted that the poetry of Milton had a direct influence on the workings of ISIS. Yes, this would be John Milton, the 17th century English poet, and ISIS, the contemporary Syrian terrorist organization. And what evidence did the professor adduce in support of this outrageous claim? None whatso-fucking-ever. And the other grad students in the room just sat there nodding knowingly, taking notes like a bunch of sycophants. No one raised their hand, no one said, “Excuse me professor, but what in Jesus’ name are you fucking talking about?” I didn’t even say anything. I had no spine! The only explanation I can think of for this was that the professor had this reflexive hatred of himself, of English literature, of basically all of Western culture, and so he had to hallucinate that Islamic terrorism is in some way the outcome of over-zealously reading Paradise Lost. I guess this is what being good friends with Derrida does to you.
dietmtnview 2y ago
I miss The Outline.

178 points by Munksgaard 2y ago

How does Earthsea -trilogy compare to Harry Potter? What I hate about Potter is that they play every day on Spectrum TV. Every day. And I'm paying for that.

creer 2y ago
You are not at any risk of running into Earthsea every day, that's for sure. Potter is a goofy lightning speed read. Much of it doesn't even make sense (see Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality for a take on that.) Some people claim here that Earthsea is aimed at young adults. It's readable by young adults but it's far too slow and calm to be of much interest to most young adults. And there is much more to be found in there by older readers. No, Earthsea's 6 books plus short stories are a peaceful but sometimes intense, slow, poetic and extremely emotion inducing view of the life of the main wizard character. From young wizard seeking his education in A Wizard of Earthsea, through questing, failing magic, retirement and return of the ex-wizard - and a few tales of other wizards in the same world; plus the old wizard and settling accounts. Magic in Earthsea is not used lightly (at least not by the main character). It is largely about knowing the true name of things. The hero sees the many problems of the world but does not rush to wand them away. Magic is not day to day housekeeping spells and conveniences and practical jokes - but can be applied to influence things that matter. Earthsea as a whole is a masterpiece. For a third direction to magic, I always include The Magicians (the book trilogy although the first couple TV seasons are also good) where we have magic as a highly unstable and poorly controlled field of ... physics or something - being taught to angst-ridden but also very sure of themselves teens by instructors who know that this stuff will kill you if you half glance away. And it does. But that same unstable high-power stuff is also the literal gate to entire other worlds - equally irresistible to our, ermmmm, heroes? Just as the language for Earthsea is spot-on, so is the writing style for The Magicians fitting for these completely different characters and genre of magic. The Magicians is a masterpiece.
- galaxyLogic 2y ago
  Great explanation thanks. If Earthsea was by Marvel we would surely see "Harry Potter meets Wizard of EarthSea" in theaters soon. :-)

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

>Questioning the spear’s phallic, murderous logic, How many more years before the ideas of Freud are so removed from common usage that we no longer have to deal with their detritus. I figure another 20-30. on edit: maybe irritating me more than normal as I recently listened to a podcast where it was all about how, despite nobody believing Freud anymore, he was just so important and central that all ideas related to his incorrect ideas.

renewiltord 2y ago
It's quite interesting how much weight humans give to old ideas. Probably a Lindy heuristic. But, man, imagine if I was early to that field and made it so that we had to conceive of all doors as being vaginal (constant testaments to women's obsession with their genitals). Do women like putting things in the trash bin because they have penis envy and want to experience putting a sword in a sheath, so to speak? Why do wives like tidying up? Is it because they like putting things in cubbies, simulating the sex experience? Wholesale trash thought. Man, even a mildly intelligent teenager has surpassed this level of free-association. But the age of the concept and its Barnum effect explanatory behaviour makes it the home of every mediocre mind. The only risk, I suppose, is that if we end this obvious sign, we remove a clear signal of sophomoric thought.
- lfmunoz4 2y ago
  You can't prove it either way, people are complex and who is to say what sort of associations people have or used to have inside their head. The simple fact is that when Freud was coming out with his ideas they were new they were original. Most of anything we read is recycled. Having a single original idea is incredible and he had many that maybe wrong but eventually did lead to some right ideas.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Oh, indeed, I am a big fan of people being wrong in novel ways that open up new ways of thought. Much of the old philosophers is really their exploration of the space. Searching means looking in the wrong place most of the time. My problem is with those who came after and keep looking in some old place where there is nothing left to find.

timvdalen 2y ago

I recently read A Wizard of Earthsea, and it took me a really long time to get through. Here's what I noted down after reading it: I can see why (and how) this book is important and good, but it just took me so much active effort to keep reading it.

asyx 2y ago
Earthsea reads like the boring retelling of a great story.
- jpm_sd 2y ago
  That's funny, my favorite thing about her writing is the calm, quiet narrative style. Kind of the opposite of the Brando Sando approach.
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    The calm writing style of John Wyndham is something I like about his stories. Not much in the way of action or excitement, no vast space opera with many winding threads. World changing ideas, writ small. Trouble with Lichen is about the discovery of a genuine anti-ageing compound, but we don't see anyone super old or the social consequences. We see the people who discover it and what they choose to do next. The Outward Urge is a family with several generations of spacemen in it. Nothing really happens, we see a few snapshots of their lives through the decades as human activity out in the solar system increases. The Midwitch Cuckoos is perhaps the most unexcitingly told story of its kind (no spoilers) but not worse for it. Web is a nice weaving of ancient curse and modern (1950s) civilisation into an imminent end of the world.
spaced-out 2y ago
I feel exactly the same way. The Dispossessed was both one of the best and one of the most boring books I've ever read. There are a lot of things I appreciate about it and I'm glad I read it, but damn was it a slog to get through.

goostavos 2y ago

How timely. I just finished reading The Word for World is Forest last night. Nobody likes a poo-pooer, but, holy moly, I thought it was unbelievable trash. Are her other books better? This one was "noble savages: the book". The Creechies can't even conceive of inter-species murder until Big Bad Comic Book Evil Guy (who just loves being evil) introduces it. The creechies don't know evil. They settle their disputes as all superior noble people would: through art. I probably just got in my own way while reading. There was a lot of "wait.. they're sending _wood_ through interstellar space?". They have an ecology that can support a supply chain that produces food in excess to perform 40+ year round trips through space, but... they can't grow a tree? A tomato plant? Sure. A tree? Nah. It might be a good kids book, if not for all the... raping.

sampo 2y ago
> Are her other books better? Yes. The Word for World is Forest is one of her weakest books.
throw1234651234 2y ago
Is this book in the same vein as "N. K. Jemisin is a real author"? Good to be forewarned.
- lemmsjid 2y ago
  Jemisin is one of the more visceral and imaginative writers I've encountered in recent years, and she did indeed produce and publish written works, so I do believe she is a real author, yes. I'd certainly be interested in reading and maybe discussing an actual critique, this being a forum where substantive posts are required in the guidelines.
  - throw1234651234 2y ago
    1. There is nothing imaginative about it. A child throwing out random ideas and copying cool scenes from TV shows at random is not "imaginative". It's made worse when every edgy social-commentary trope is forced in. 2. The biggest offense, of course, is the word "science" in her being labelled a "science fiction" author. A 4th grade understanding of the first chapter of a geology book that is immediately violated is not "science fiction". Of course, I am mainly upset about the destruction of the Nebula Awards by the inclusion of the Fifth Season in the list among authors who actually understand science, computer science, served in the military, and overall have, and further, an understanding of how things work. Jemisin might be on par with that guy who wrote about magic balls catching lightning (Sanderson) in the Stormlight Archive, but neither of them belong on a good science fiction list.

datadrivenangel 2y ago

Le Guin is a fantastic writer. The Lathe of Heaven, The Left Hand of Darkness, and the Eye of the Heron are all excellent and thought provoking novels among Le Guin's other works.

gertlex 2y ago
Curious: do you include Earthsea novels in that tier? Maybe it was just me not trying hard enough at the time (a decade+ ago); I wanted to read LHoD but couldn't get my hands on it. I know it's now available as an ebook more easily, but I remain a bit peeved about how it was the one thing I couldn't buy legitimately at the time. That combined with not enjoying Earthsea (I read two or three books?), makes me biased to keep reading any online recommendations but Le Guin.
- edanm 2y ago
  I liked The Left Hand of Darkness and loved The Dispossessed. I didn't like the first Earthsea novel and haven't read any others. I suspect it's a book that tends to work better for young readers, or older readers nostalgic for things they read in their youth.
- drivers99 2y ago
  > I wanted to read LHoD but couldn't get my hands on it. [...] it was the one thing I couldn't buy legitimately at the time It's currently available in paperback.
- ska 2y ago
  Earthsea was written targeted for children/youth; it’s the same author but in a different register so you may find you enjoy her other stuff more?
- apignotti 2y ago
  I consider 'Left Hand Of Darkness' to be the single book that resonated the most with me, with 'The Dispossessed' being my previous favorite. On the other hand I was very disappointed from 'A Wizard Of Heartsea'.
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pkkim 2y ago

I want to plug one of her lesser known books, Always Coming Home. It's set among a tribe of people living in the Bay Area way, way after some apocalypse has erased the memory of our civilization. Much of the book is reports from an anthropologist studying the people. I think a lot of her books are about how many different ways of life and types of society and culture are possible, and this book is one of her best at bringing you in to another culture.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
I love that book too, maybe my favorite by her, but have found it to be a polarizing recommendation. It's a very unusual format (the novel is interspersed with creation myths, plays, songs, recipes, etc of the people of the setting) and some people just immediately dislike it. I also think in some important ways it is not as narratively strong as her best works, a necessary tradeoff for what it does accomplish. It's very interesting to consider her being raised by an anthropologist, and her exceptional childhood exposure to Ishi, whom her father had known and her mother and brother separately wrote books about. A thread running through all of her books is a deep human interest in the ways of peoples, and how their stories about themselves shape who they are and their relationship to a changing world. Always Coming Home is the book of her that is most, almost exclusively, focused on these concerns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi_in_Two_Worlds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishi_in_Two_Worlds
creer 2y ago
It's very atypical for her - and I think she recognized that. Yes, an ambitious work of anthropology through fiction, illustrating how "tribal" works?
sunshowers 2y ago
I love Always Coming Home so much. It's so rich and creative. For a shorter story (~50 pages), I'd highly recommend Paradises Lost by her. Many people have written stories about generation ships, but this one is absolutely stunning and truly marvelous.
m3talsmith 2y ago

abdullahkhalids 2y ago

One of the great tragedies of our time is that collectively humans have stopped imagining alternate socio-economic-political systems. In the few hundred years before 1990, there was a lot of imagination of what could be, and many of those systems were attempted. But since then, it seems everywhere we are stuck. Reading Ursula Le Guin's work is essential because she boldly tries to re-imagine. Not to say any of her fictional worlds should be made reality, but that we need to do serious intellectual work going forward. Surely, humans have explored a few tiny dots in the space of all possible socio-economic-political systems.

Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism'
- abdullahkhalids 2y ago
  > We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable – but then, so did the divine right of kings. Ursula K Le Guin [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/20/ursula-k-le-guin-national-book-awards-speech https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/20/ursula-k-le-gu...
  - 7thaccount 2y ago
    I was literally just thinking of this quote 15 minutes ago. Weird to see it at the top of HN. Capitalism seems to work better than the systems we've tried in the recent past (communism and feudalism are obviously worse in my eyes due to reduced freedom and the huge amounts of life lost in both Russia and China under these systems) , but it's obviously far from perfect. I'm not sure what could be done better, but Le Guin reminds me it's possible to think of alternatives. Speaking of alternative ideas..Chesterton was critical of both communism and capitalism. He proposed something that was intriguing and involved focusing on smaller local communities. I'm not sure how it could work towards technological advancement though which in my eyes is important. It seems to have had some popularity with certain Christian movements in the past century. The concept that ownership of the economy shouldn't be concentrated into a small group of people or corporations makes sense to me, but I don't see a way to make that work economically in modern times. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism Regardless, I'm really interested in these kinds of niche ideas if anyone has others to share.

aquir 2y ago

She is my favourite Sci-Fi writer! Her works like the Dispossessed and the Left Hand of Darkness are true masterpieces! She wouldn’t like mw to call her Sci-Fi writer she called herself a speculative fiction writer. The fact that she was a woman gave a really new point of view to her writings.

creer 2y ago

The article gives a reading of Ursula Le Guin that falls from one merely political way to see the world (conquest) into another (global warming and human hubris) - plus a heavy dose of corresponding judgementality. To me Ursula Le Guin's books are different still: I see them mostly as prompts for my emotion and as people living their life. One's life is only loosely tied to the political thought or environment around us. We are allowed to make our life one and the same in a political militant fashion but that is an option, a choice. We don't have to. In the books, we are presented worlds (often through the character growing up in it) and then we are presented the characters trajectories through them. Many sci-fi writers want to present political ideas through created worlds, of course. That is not Ursula Le Guin's dominion. And her worlds are certainly not reaching for "free from harm"! Where in the world does that one come from?! What I read them for: 1) I love that many of her characters are paying attention. They are not simply surviving passively in the sense of always reacting and living past the current hardship. They are also not just as mindlessly choosing militant action or conquest. 2) I love above all the writing style. Immensely calm. And the language: poetic, smooth and emotion-prompting. Ursula Le Guin stands out for me in that direction. Perfect tone is rare, instilling emotion in me to this degree is very rare. Just as The Magicians is written in a style that perfectly matches teen angst (as opposed to Harry Potter.) And I note that Ursula Le Guin's teens usually don't have much angst - unrealistically so - and I'm fine with that - the rest makes up for it. I highly recommend these books - but certainly not as the one major source of political creativity.

worik 2y ago
> but certainly not as the one major source of political creativity. Yes. But certainly as one major source of political creativity. Sympathetic criticism of anarchist thinking (The Disposesd) was most welcome
- creer 2y ago
  And that's just one book . That one book did find its audience, that's for sure! No contest there! That makes it tempting to judge her entire work through that lens. And that one book is as prominent as The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress: one title that comes up again and again to illustrate political thought / utopias / distopias. By contrast, the Earthsea cycle ended up with 6 books and a few short stories. And Always Coming Home was a massive project.

hannofcart 2y ago

I read ULG's 'The Dispossessed' and while the writing is great, it more feels like social commentary with a mild flavour of sci-fi. I suppose am struggling to articulate this better. To give you a contrast, take Arthur C Clarke, a contemporary of hers. Consider his book 'A Fall of Moondust' (one of my favourites). In ACC's book, there is some core peculiarity of the fundamental nature of the world that the story is entirely based on. The possibilities stemming from that one oddity is interesting from a scientific perspective. Having said that, the characters in that book are nothing to write home about. They serve the necessary function for the plot but nothing too memorable. ULG's plot on the other hand has no distinctive scientifically interesting peculiarity that it seems to be built on. It might as well have occurred on Earth just as it does in 'Anarres' or 'Urras'. It feels like ULG's book is more about people/political theory/social commentary/human condition than any scientifically intriguing theory. It's still a good read I guess, but it didn't scratch my sci-fi itch.

bawolff 2y ago
I feel like the core idea of sci-fi is - imagine the world, but with some specific thing different. What would the consequences be? Le guin does it with social issues. Someone like Greg Egan does it with laws of physics. The formula is both oddly similar yet totally different. P.s. i'm not sure i would consider Clarke exactly a contemporary of Le Guin. They certainly heavily overlap, but i think Clarke kind of belongs to the previous generation - at least stylistically wise.
the_af 2y ago
> It feels like ULG's book is more about people/political theory/social commentary/human condition than any scientifically intriguing theory. Agreed that on the spectrum of politics/society to scientific theory/gizmo, Le Guin leans heavily towards politics/society. Whether that is one's cup of tea is a different matter. It sometimes is for me, and sometimes not; depends on the mood. For an author who was also into societal issues, I prefer James Tiptree Jr (Alice Sheldon), because she injected more of the alienness/weirdness I tend to seek when reading scifi. I do like Ursula, don't get me wrong! I'm just not always in the mood for reading her, while I'm almost always in the mood to read more James Tiptree Jr! (On that note, I just realized back in 2019 they renamed the "James Tiptree Jr Award" to "Otherwise", for disappointing reasons. Oh, well)

kaycebasques 2y ago

Was just talking to a colleague about The Dispossessed. That book never did it for me. Left Of Hand Of Darkness on the other, erm, hand... wow. Fascinating premise. UKLG also did an interpretation of the Tao Te Ching that is worth a slow, contemplative readthrough.

rgovostes 2y ago
I had the inverse take. Read Dispossessed and thought the commentary was insightful, so I followed it with LHOD, but I felt like the points it makes about gender roles are blunted by the passage of 55 years, more so than points about capitalism. I am pretty sure I missed most of the ways she tries to contrast the Gethenians against our own society.

jokethrowaway 2y ago

I find Le Guin to write interesting explorations but this article is pure political propaganda. We should all be reading more Ayn Rand

giraffe_lady 2y ago
Rand was a shitty writer though which makes a huge difference it turns out.
- Squeeeez 2y ago
  How many great ideas have been published by horrible writers, and thus overlooked by the whole world?
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    Nowhere near as many as haven't been published by brilliant people toiling in obscure penury for their mere survival.
int_19h 2y ago
If you want to read something actually interesting on the subject of a right-libertarian utopia, Heinlein (Moon is a Harsh Mistress) is where it at. That book can actually be an interesting pairing with The Dispossessed, as both aren't shy of showcasing the downsides of the ideas they put on the pedestal. Ayn Rand is neither a good writer nor a good ideologue.
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MeImCounting 2y ago

In my opinion, Le Guin, Butler and more recently authors like Chambers all live in the same sphere of speculative fiction or "sci fi" if you like that is in complete opposition to Clark, Weir and others which have dominated the genre for a long time now. These stories are less about some interesting imaginary application of physics or the unknown in a vast mechanistic universe and more about how society and individuals relate and imagining the infinite ways these two forces can interact. Often the backdrop is secondary to the exploration of the characters and the society they live in. I think this type of story is really fundamental to our progress as a society and we should all talk more about these authors and the stories they told/tell. It makes me happy to see Le Guin talked about, critiqued and praised on HN today. I think this is the talk where Le Guin talks about the continuity of this type of story telling and contrasts it with hard sci fi. Definitely worth a listen IMO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PI1xwT2-74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PI1xwT2-74

FredPret 2y ago
On the topic of alternative systems - Daniel Suarez wrote the excellent two books Daemon and Freedom (TM). MINOR SPOILER It describes an AI / algorithmic form of government that probably would never work but is interesting to think about and makes for great fiction
- MeImCounting 2y ago
  Well really I think that technology and societal/economic structures are deeply related in ways that dont necessarily get enough consideration in many discussions on the topic. For instance our current most successful form of capitalism is enabled primarily by the technologies created in the industrial revolution allowing shipping of goods and services long distances. We have seen it change rapidly and deeply as we developed telephony and computers and I suspect as new and better forms of communication and transportation evolve we will see further evolution of the basic system. Unknown technologies or applications of the future will likely cause further evolution and possibly revolution in how we structure our economic and social structures and I think its both fascinating and important to think and talk about these things! My pet favorite is the anarchic utopia of the Culture from Ian M Banks' Culture novels. Obviously impossible without the near infinite processing, energy and matter resources enabled by the Minds and the Ships they control but still fun to think about (and even aspire to value-wise in many cases IMO)

hotdogscout 2y ago

The credentialism that permeates discussion in Bolshevik adjacent circles annoys me deeply. Famous political authors that sold a lot of books don't bring any more credentials to an idea than if I said something in a 4chan post. Argue with the ideas you got from the author, don't keep using them like a religious figure! So many comments here are just quoting things without pondering if it's bullshit. Sometimes it is! For irony and fun here's a quote from PhD dropout Natalie Wynn: There’s also a certain amount of genuine leftist bullshit passing itself off as scholarship. I was once in a comparative literature seminar that I foolishly took in the hopes of getting to read something written with a decent prose style, or at least something by an emotionally competent human being. Boy was I disappointed when on the first day the professor made two allusions to “my good friend Derrida.” Those are quotation marks around “my good friend” because he mentioned that Derrida was his friend every time it came up. Pass the cyanide, honey. Anyway, the low point of this guy’s endless, beginningless, argument-free impromptu lectures came when he baldly asserted that the poetry of Milton had a direct influence on the workings of ISIS. Yes, this would be John Milton, the 17th century English poet, and ISIS, the contemporary Syrian terrorist organization. And what evidence did the professor adduce in support of this outrageous claim? None whatso-fucking-ever. And the other grad students in the room just sat there nodding knowingly, taking notes like a bunch of sycophants. No one raised their hand, no one said, “Excuse me professor, but what in Jesus’ name are you fucking talking about?” I didn’t even say anything. I had no spine! The only explanation I can think of for this was that the professor had this reflexive hatred of himself, of English literature, of basically all of Western culture, and so he had to hallucinate that Islamic terrorism is in some way the outcome of over-zealously reading Paradise Lost. I guess this is what being good friends with Derrida does to you.

dietmtnview 2y ago

I miss The Outline.