3 ms·

Would you mind also looking a bit further please, like on the main European continent? Our wages here are even lower than in London/UK and we also speak good En

Would you mind also looking a bit further please, like on the main European continent? Our wages here are even lower than in London/UK and we also speak good English. You can hire a developer here for what you'd pay a barista at your San-Fran HQ. Thanks!

oliwarner 3y ago
> we also speak good English I think the accent has as much to do with it as anything. Americans are culturally wired to overestimate someone with even a mildly posh British accent.
alephnerd 3y ago
I've been a hiring manager, and while wages play a role, they do not significantly move the needle. The main driver is talent base, ease of operations, and time zone overlaps. The true value of offshoring comes from being able to essentially run 24/7 operations across a couple countries that have a strong talent base and relatively easy operations for us as a company (easy to fire, easy to hire, tax holidays, etc). This is why Israel, India, Ireland, and parts of Eastern Europe like Romania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine became popular for software outsourcing.
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  >This is why Israel, India, and parts of Eastern Europe like Romania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine became popular for software outsourcing. Not sure about the rest but it's definitely not easy to fire in Romania at all, and workers there get a lot of mandatory legal benefits like generous sick and parental leave. Unless you hire them B-2-B, which is quite common for high wage outsourcing jobs, then yeah.
  - rob74 3y ago
    "hire B-2-B", a.k.a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_self-employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_self-employment ?
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      No, you contract with another business to employ them on your behalf. Legal, common, and much more flexible.
      - NullPrefix 3y ago
        mandatory legal benefits like generous sick and parental leave still apply
        Ekaros 3y ago
        They are still cheaper despite all that...
        red-iron-pine 3y ago
        not if they're in a different country, and if they're employed as contractors
        NullPrefix 3y ago
        >you contract with another business to employ them That another business is liable to pay them
    - Rinzler89 3y ago
      No, you set up your own legal entity(company) based on the financial/legal framework in your country, and bill your foreign employer for the work you do, but you're not an employee so you have no right to sick days, firing protection, etc. and have to do your own taxes.
      - komadori 3y ago
        Note that if the employer is found to be engaging in "disguised employment" then, in some jurisdictions such as the UK, they may be found liable for these things anyway plus penalties.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > hire them B-2-B, which is quite common for high wage outsourcing jobs This is what my previous employer did
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  I've heard one reason the UK is so popular for European HQs is we can talk to India in the morning, Europe during the day, the East Coast in the afternoon and the West Coast as we sign off. Basically we cover the vast majority of the Western world plus the outsourcing giant that is India.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    The time zone factor for meetings isn't significant, as Indian, Eastern European, and Israeli employees are fine taking meetings that accommodate American time zones because we pay 2-3x more than local competitors. The reason UK is a base is because UK business law is extremely thorough and any flavor of contract dispute has been litigated multiple times in the UK. This means it's easier for me to manage operations all over the EFTA and EU via the EU-UK TCA. The English factor is a massive plus as well because that is the global language of commerce - not French or German. This is why Netherlands tries to treat English as a first class language similar to Dutch, because that is critical for businesses.
blululu 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  [flagged]
simonsarris 3y ago
We could hire them. But could we fire them?
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  Yes you can. Austria is at-will employment.

oliwarner 3y ago

> we also speak good English I think the accent has as much to do with it as anything. Americans are culturally wired to overestimate someone with even a mildly posh British accent.

alephnerd 3y ago

I've been a hiring manager, and while wages play a role, they do not significantly move the needle. The main driver is talent base, ease of operations, and time zone overlaps. The true value of offshoring comes from being able to essentially run 24/7 operations across a couple countries that have a strong talent base and relatively easy operations for us as a company (easy to fire, easy to hire, tax holidays, etc). This is why Israel, India, Ireland, and parts of Eastern Europe like Romania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine became popular for software outsourcing.

Rinzler89 3y ago
>This is why Israel, India, and parts of Eastern Europe like Romania, Poland, Belarus, and Ukraine became popular for software outsourcing. Not sure about the rest but it's definitely not easy to fire in Romania at all, and workers there get a lot of mandatory legal benefits like generous sick and parental leave. Unless you hire them B-2-B, which is quite common for high wage outsourcing jobs, then yeah.
- rob74 3y ago
  "hire B-2-B", a.k.a. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_self-employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_self-employment ?
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    No, you contract with another business to employ them on your behalf. Legal, common, and much more flexible.
    - NullPrefix 3y ago
      mandatory legal benefits like generous sick and parental leave still apply
      - Ekaros 3y ago
        They are still cheaper despite all that...
      - red-iron-pine 3y ago
        not if they're in a different country, and if they're employed as contractors
        NullPrefix 3y ago
        >you contract with another business to employ them That another business is liable to pay them
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    No, you set up your own legal entity(company) based on the financial/legal framework in your country, and bill your foreign employer for the work you do, but you're not an employee so you have no right to sick days, firing protection, etc. and have to do your own taxes.
    - komadori 3y ago
      Note that if the employer is found to be engaging in "disguised employment" then, in some jurisdictions such as the UK, they may be found liable for these things anyway plus penalties.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > hire them B-2-B, which is quite common for high wage outsourcing jobs This is what my previous employer did
dukeyukey 3y ago
I've heard one reason the UK is so popular for European HQs is we can talk to India in the morning, Europe during the day, the East Coast in the afternoon and the West Coast as we sign off. Basically we cover the vast majority of the Western world plus the outsourcing giant that is India.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  The time zone factor for meetings isn't significant, as Indian, Eastern European, and Israeli employees are fine taking meetings that accommodate American time zones because we pay 2-3x more than local competitors. The reason UK is a base is because UK business law is extremely thorough and any flavor of contract dispute has been litigated multiple times in the UK. This means it's easier for me to manage operations all over the EFTA and EU via the EU-UK TCA. The English factor is a massive plus as well because that is the global language of commerce - not French or German. This is why Netherlands tries to treat English as a first class language similar to Dutch, because that is critical for businesses.

blululu 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Rinzler89 3y ago
[flagged]

simonsarris 3y ago

We could hire them. But could we fire them?

Rinzler89 3y ago
Yes you can. Austria is at-will employment.