2 ms·

Well, the ukrainians would be an obvious example. No, I don't. Who are you quoting? Sinwar is popular because he successfully organises resistance towards the

by cess11 3y ago

Well, the ukrainians would be an obvious example. No, I don't. Who are you quoting? Sinwar is popular because he successfully organises resistance towards the occupation and apparently doesn't do it to enrich himself. Russia had reasons, but I don't think they were particularly good reasons or enough to warrant the invasion.

gryzzly 3y ago
What means do you think would be justified for Ukranian resistance? Would launching rockets at civilian quarters in Russia be OK? Or stabbing ordinary Russians in public transport? Is shooting at cars indiscriminately OK? At what point you think the western countries would consider withdrawing their support? You have an interesting opinion of "successful resistance". What happens in the West Bank and Gaza is really difficult to call "success" for Palestinians. Can you elaborate what you meant with "successful"? Happy to hear you don’t think rape and hostage taking are legitimate resistance. To follow up on this point – you believe Hamas didn’t do that? Or how do you simultaneously call them "charity resistance org" and disapprove of the extreme violence?
- cess11 3y ago
  Not sure what you're getting at. Contemporary stabbings in Jerusalem and the West Bank are mainly aimed at soldiers, same goes for shootings. There are exceptions, but doesn't seem very common. I'm not following the conflict in Ukraine as closely but aren't there militia factions there attacking into Russia? Hamas has been relatively successful, more successful than their competitors. What success in some universal sense would look like, I don't know. Currently Israel has pretty big problems though so it seems kinda successful in some general sense? What do you mean by "extreme violence"? Reading this I get flashbacks to photos of people run over by israeli tanks and the kid who in november last year filmed himself when experiencing a lack of drones for the first time, so I think that's the kind of violence that has made the strongest impression on me from the last six months or so. Impulsively throwing handgrenades at people in a shelter is gruesome, but it lacks the calculation and sadism of running someone over with a tank and turning them into mush, or forcing kids to grow up under the constant hum of weaponised drones. As far as hostage taking and 'legitimacy', it's hard to come up with alternatives. Israel routinely takes palestinian kids off the street in occupied territories and put them in military detention centers, commonly abuses or tortures them, and keeps prisoners indefinitely on weak or non-existent grounds. To force Israel to release prisoners through other means than hostage exchange would likely require quite a bit more violence, and I'm not so sure that is preferable. I didn't call Hamas a charity organisation, I mentioned that they also do social and charity work. Which they do, and that's how they started.
  - skinkestek 3y ago
    > Contemporary stabbings in Jerusalem and the West Bank are mainly aimed at soldiers, same goes for shootings. Sweets are handed out for every attack, including for the guy who crushed the skull of a toddler, slashed the throats of elderly etc. The logic is they are either IDF soldiers now, has been or will become it seems.
    - cess11 3y ago
      It's very common in the area to hand out sweets to other people. Where can I read about the toddler case and "slashed throats of elderly"? It's somewhat understandable though, almost every palestinian knows about a toddler killed by the occupation, a grandparent killed by the occupation, a family deprived of their home and land on some flimsy justification, and so on. That some of them lash out at anyone should be expected, people tend to become abusive from abuse. Yes, some palestinians see the conscription as something that makes every israeli guilty in the occupation. Some israeli jewish leftists have a similar view, they see israelis that don't engage themselves politically against the occupation as part of it. Still, as far as I can gather, most of the militant activity in the West Bank and Jerusalem seems to be aimed at soldiers in service at the moment. In Israel there has been some attacks with cars, where at least one, I think in Haifa, hurt civilians. Still, nothing that compares to deliberately and proudly starving a couple of million people.
skinkestek 3y ago
[flagged]
- cess11 3y ago
  Controlling the borders, airspace, communications, finances and so on amounts to occupation. Israel does not have "equal civil rights for every citizen". It's not just about palestinians being discriminated against, but also LGBTQ-persons and women. You know that Israel does not allow same-sex marriages, right? If you're gay and want to get married you have to travel abroad. A lot of things are done in religious courts, and some of them have weird powers, like being able to decide that a dead soldier's sperm can be harvested. It's not "a few". I didn't mention carpet bombing. Israel kills about 75-200 palestinians in the Gaza strip per day over the last month or two, most in bombings of people who are sleeping in their homes with their families. Many while they are out looking for food, or helping with food distribution. Israel is habitually deceptive or straight out lies about its behaviour in the Gaza strip. If sensible is an ideal to you, how do you explain Israel's incessant attempts to escalate against much stronger foes than the palestinian militias? The IDF is already in trouble against people in flipflops carrying RPG:s, why are they seeking conflict with forces that are equipped with targeted munitions, air force and the like? Why are they killing UNIFIL personnel? Is it sensible to kill US citizens in the Gaza strip? And if "media and others" bother you, shut them out? I see some embarrassing haiku headlines in passive voice from NYT sometimes, but it isn't more than I can handle because I keep my exposure to bourgeois and imperial mass media to a minimum. I think Eylon Levy got fired and started his own media bureau, maybe you could watch only that for a while and then pick some of his favourite tropes and try to fact check them for a bit of 'reality check'?
  - edanm 3y ago
    [flagged]

by cess11 3y ago

gryzzly 3y ago

What means do you think would be justified for Ukranian resistance? Would launching rockets at civilian quarters in Russia be OK? Or stabbing ordinary Russians in public transport? Is shooting at cars indiscriminately OK? At what point you think the western countries would consider withdrawing their support? You have an interesting opinion of "successful resistance". What happens in the West Bank and Gaza is really difficult to call "success" for Palestinians. Can you elaborate what you meant with "successful"? Happy to hear you don’t think rape and hostage taking are legitimate resistance. To follow up on this point – you believe Hamas didn’t do that? Or how do you simultaneously call them "charity resistance org" and disapprove of the extreme violence?

cess11 3y ago
Not sure what you're getting at. Contemporary stabbings in Jerusalem and the West Bank are mainly aimed at soldiers, same goes for shootings. There are exceptions, but doesn't seem very common. I'm not following the conflict in Ukraine as closely but aren't there militia factions there attacking into Russia? Hamas has been relatively successful, more successful than their competitors. What success in some universal sense would look like, I don't know. Currently Israel has pretty big problems though so it seems kinda successful in some general sense? What do you mean by "extreme violence"? Reading this I get flashbacks to photos of people run over by israeli tanks and the kid who in november last year filmed himself when experiencing a lack of drones for the first time, so I think that's the kind of violence that has made the strongest impression on me from the last six months or so. Impulsively throwing handgrenades at people in a shelter is gruesome, but it lacks the calculation and sadism of running someone over with a tank and turning them into mush, or forcing kids to grow up under the constant hum of weaponised drones. As far as hostage taking and 'legitimacy', it's hard to come up with alternatives. Israel routinely takes palestinian kids off the street in occupied territories and put them in military detention centers, commonly abuses or tortures them, and keeps prisoners indefinitely on weak or non-existent grounds. To force Israel to release prisoners through other means than hostage exchange would likely require quite a bit more violence, and I'm not so sure that is preferable. I didn't call Hamas a charity organisation, I mentioned that they also do social and charity work. Which they do, and that's how they started.
- skinkestek 3y ago
  > Contemporary stabbings in Jerusalem and the West Bank are mainly aimed at soldiers, same goes for shootings. Sweets are handed out for every attack, including for the guy who crushed the skull of a toddler, slashed the throats of elderly etc. The logic is they are either IDF soldiers now, has been or will become it seems.
  - cess11 3y ago
    It's very common in the area to hand out sweets to other people. Where can I read about the toddler case and "slashed throats of elderly"? It's somewhat understandable though, almost every palestinian knows about a toddler killed by the occupation, a grandparent killed by the occupation, a family deprived of their home and land on some flimsy justification, and so on. That some of them lash out at anyone should be expected, people tend to become abusive from abuse. Yes, some palestinians see the conscription as something that makes every israeli guilty in the occupation. Some israeli jewish leftists have a similar view, they see israelis that don't engage themselves politically against the occupation as part of it. Still, as far as I can gather, most of the militant activity in the West Bank and Jerusalem seems to be aimed at soldiers in service at the moment. In Israel there has been some attacks with cars, where at least one, I think in Haifa, hurt civilians. Still, nothing that compares to deliberately and proudly starving a couple of million people.

skinkestek 3y ago

[flagged]

cess11 3y ago
Controlling the borders, airspace, communications, finances and so on amounts to occupation. Israel does not have "equal civil rights for every citizen". It's not just about palestinians being discriminated against, but also LGBTQ-persons and women. You know that Israel does not allow same-sex marriages, right? If you're gay and want to get married you have to travel abroad. A lot of things are done in religious courts, and some of them have weird powers, like being able to decide that a dead soldier's sperm can be harvested. It's not "a few". I didn't mention carpet bombing. Israel kills about 75-200 palestinians in the Gaza strip per day over the last month or two, most in bombings of people who are sleeping in their homes with their families. Many while they are out looking for food, or helping with food distribution. Israel is habitually deceptive or straight out lies about its behaviour in the Gaza strip. If sensible is an ideal to you, how do you explain Israel's incessant attempts to escalate against much stronger foes than the palestinian militias? The IDF is already in trouble against people in flipflops carrying RPG:s, why are they seeking conflict with forces that are equipped with targeted munitions, air force and the like? Why are they killing UNIFIL personnel? Is it sensible to kill US citizens in the Gaza strip? And if "media and others" bother you, shut them out? I see some embarrassing haiku headlines in passive voice from NYT sometimes, but it isn't more than I can handle because I keep my exposure to bourgeois and imperial mass media to a minimum. I think Eylon Levy got fired and started his own media bureau, maybe you could watch only that for a while and then pick some of his favourite tropes and try to fact check them for a bit of 'reality check'?
- edanm 3y ago
  [flagged]