4 ms·

There are a lot of things we depend on others for. Do you call the plumber when your home plumbing leaks?

by adeelk 14y ago

Falling3 14y ago
It's funny you should ask that because it touches on an analogy posed by Jeff Atwood just the other day. And a lot of people rebelled against it. Do I call the plumber when I have a serious leak? Yes. But I don't call one when I the toilet is running or when I have a leaky faucet. No one is suggesting everyone needs to be able to write a full-fledged production program, but who can deny that having some knowledge of the inner workings of a system you depend on is not going to make you a better user?
- adeelk 14y ago
  I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with learning to program. Learning the basics of any skill can help you, but it’s up to an individual whether he wants to spend his time picking up plumbing, car repair, programming, etc., or just focus on moving further in whatever his own field is.
  - Falling3 14y ago
    Of course. And that's why no one is saying people must learn to program - only that they should. And it makes sense if you spend ~8 hours a day using something that you have some idea of how it works.
    - factorial 14y ago
      Should everybody who writes a couple of tweets spend some time studying linguistics to know about the tool (language) he's using?
delian66 14y ago
When you need to read or write something, do you call somebody else to do it for you? My point is that programming in the broader sense (giving instructions to computers, which they can repeat many times with accuracy later) is a far more general and usefull ability, than for example the ability to do plumbing.
- factorial 14y ago
  If you take your average computer user, put him in front of an empty sheet of paper and tell him to put his thoughts on issue X in writing, you will probably find that he or she is not all that adept at this skill, and if you then pull out your trusty copy of, say, Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia, ask him to read it and give you a summary of the main argument in about ten pages, he or she will fail miserably as well. Yet, those people somehow manage to get through life. They just have no need for programming skills. Plenty of those people have a hard enough time coping with the UI when the windows have a different arrangement. I once worked in tech support, and one of my highlights was dealing with distressed users who accidentally minimized their Windows 3.1 desktop and had no idea what was going on... Sure, tell those people that they absolutely need to learn how to program.
jwhitlark 14y ago
And yet we still have people learn basic math, to read and write, etc. Like doing math with roman numerals, there are many ways the programming can be improved. We do need better notation, but that doesn't mean there is no part of the process that doesn't require the effort of the human. Programming is about describing how to solve problems. Maybe we call a plumber, but we don't call a math professor to figure out how many plates we need on the table when people are coming to dinner. By you logic, people don't need to be able to read because we have street signs. The ipad is easy to use because it's designed to be tightly constrained. You can only do things that people prepared for you. But solving tightly constrained problems is what computers are good for; if you can't do anymore than that, why are you needed? Throughout history, it was believed that most people didn't need to read and write, or know math, etc. But the core of that argument is anti-humanist. And no, "computer literacy" isn't the answer, (and is a ridiculous term anyway; literacy requires that you be able to express yourself), anymore than "calculator literacy" is the answer to solving math problems. Knowing how to use a tool isn't enough, you have to understand something about what you're trying to accomplish. A calculator isn't going to help you if you don't know what basic math is, and how it applies to the problem you're trying to solve.

There are a lot of things we depend on others for. Do you call the plumber when your home plumbing leaks?

by adeelk 14y ago

There are a lot of things we depend on others for. Do you call the plumber when your home plumbing leaks?

It's funny you should ask that because it touches on an analogy posed by Jeff Atwood just the other day. And a lot of people rebelled against it. Do I call the plumber when I have a serious leak? Yes. But I don't call one when I the toilet is running or when I have a leaky faucet. No one is suggesting everyone needs to be able to write a full-fledged production program, but who can deny that having some knowledge of the inner workings of a system you depend on is not going to make you a better user?

adeelk 14y ago
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with learning to program. Learning the basics of any skill can help you, but it’s up to an individual whether he wants to spend his time picking up plumbing, car repair, programming, etc., or just focus on moving further in whatever his own field is.
- Falling3 14y ago
  Of course. And that's why no one is saying people must learn to program - only that they should. And it makes sense if you spend ~8 hours a day using something that you have some idea of how it works.
  - factorial 14y ago
    Should everybody who writes a couple of tweets spend some time studying linguistics to know about the tool (language) he's using?

delian66 14y ago

When you need to read or write something, do you call somebody else to do it for you? My point is that programming in the broader sense (giving instructions to computers, which they can repeat many times with accuracy later) is a far more general and usefull ability, than for example the ability to do plumbing.

factorial 14y ago
If you take your average computer user, put him in front of an empty sheet of paper and tell him to put his thoughts on issue X in writing, you will probably find that he or she is not all that adept at this skill, and if you then pull out your trusty copy of, say, Nozick's Anarchy, State and Utopia, ask him to read it and give you a summary of the main argument in about ten pages, he or she will fail miserably as well. Yet, those people somehow manage to get through life. They just have no need for programming skills. Plenty of those people have a hard enough time coping with the UI when the windows have a different arrangement. I once worked in tech support, and one of my highlights was dealing with distressed users who accidentally minimized their Windows 3.1 desktop and had no idea what was going on... Sure, tell those people that they absolutely need to learn how to program.

jwhitlark 14y ago

And yet we still have people learn basic math, to read and write, etc. Like doing math with roman numerals, there are many ways the programming can be improved. We do need better notation, but that doesn't mean there is no part of the process that doesn't require the effort of the human. Programming is about describing how to solve problems. Maybe we call a plumber, but we don't call a math professor to figure out how many plates we need on the table when people are coming to dinner. By you logic, people don't need to be able to read because we have street signs. The ipad is easy to use because it's designed to be tightly constrained. You can only do things that people prepared for you. But solving tightly constrained problems is what computers are good for; if you can't do anymore than that, why are you needed? Throughout history, it was believed that most people didn't need to read and write, or know math, etc. But the core of that argument is anti-humanist. And no, "computer literacy" isn't the answer, (and is a ridiculous term anyway; literacy requires that you be able to express yourself), anymore than "calculator literacy" is the answer to solving math problems. Knowing how to use a tool isn't enough, you have to understand something about what you're trying to accomplish. A calculator isn't going to help you if you don't know what basic math is, and how it applies to the problem you're trying to solve.