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Physically healthy 28-year-old woman schedules euthanasia due to depression
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bloqs 3y agoShame about the source
- sneak 3y agoI wish more countries recognized the ultimate and inviolable right to self ownership. If we aren’t free to destroy ourselves if we so desire, we aren’t actually free.
- bowsamic 3y agoYou have to make an argument that freedom is inherently good, which is not obvious to me. I think it's good to force people to do things in many situations
- bheadmaster 3y ago> You have to make an argument that freedom is inherently good, which is not obvious to me Your next sentence holds that assumption as obvious: > I think it's good to force people to do things in many situations Why do you think you should have freedom to even think, let alone decide, what is good for other people?
- bowsamic 3y ago> Why do you think you should have freedom to even think, let alone decide, what is good for other people? It's not necessarily good for each person, but good for society. Also I don't even know if I should have that freedom, that would be something we would have to philosophically investigate.
- bheadmaster 3y agoYou seem to be using the word "good" as if it's universally understood and agreed upon, but that's not the case. Why do you even think you should have the freedom to decide what's "good" in the first place?
- Jenk 3y ago"You're not allowed to rape" is a pretty strong example.
- bheadmaster 3y ago"You're not allowed" implies that someone else has the freedom to decide what is and is not allowed. All roads lead to freedom. There can be no tyranny without freedom to tyrannize - there's just no way around it.
- Jenk 3y agoIt's not implying anything. It's explicitly telling "We as a society have decided for you" This is literally what law is. A social construct to codify (and enable the enforcement of) what is deemed moral vs amoral.
- bheadmaster 3y ago> We as a society have decided for you Which implies that someone else had the freedom to decide what's good for you. Society is just a bunch of other people.
- Jenk 3y agoYa, the majority of society (or not in many cases of authoritarian states across the globe, but I digress). You appear to be trying to paint some kind on complex philosophical picture where it just simply doesn't exist. Law is the codification, and ratification, of what society deems ethical/moral behaviour. Unless you are about to start declaring some magic creates law, no shit it comes from people.
- xanderlewis 3y ago> You have to make an argument that freedom is inherently good Or accept it as axiomatic.
- bowsamic 3y agoIf you accept something as an axiom and other people don't then it's not a very good axiom. I.e., you will have to justify yourself and your actions to others, who think your actions are wrong. Besides, an axiom is something assumed because the way that the ideas are built off of them are interesting, not because the axiom and the result are unquestionable.
- bluescrn 3y agoI don't think we should trust 'the state' to force people to do anything. We generally need them to force people not to do a few really bad things (e.g. some basic laws), but in recent decades it feels that the concept of freedom has been under relentless attack and in an era without religion, the state is almost becoming a substitute for a god. But these days it seems that our leaders are motivated almost entirely by profit. They will not do what is best for the average individual.
- bowsamic 3y agoDo you think the state should allow parents of children to kill or neglect them if the parents want to? I don't personally and I'm happy for the state to try and save such children. There are countless other examples like this I could come up with. EDIT: the second and third paragraphs were added after I wrote this message
- bacro 3y agoI agree with that when the problem is irreversible and will cause unending pain for the person. However, this case does not seem like it. If she had like Parkinson or Alzheimer then I would understand but depression? There are very good anti-depressants that help go through if she cannot find another way to cope. Also, there might be something physically wrong that doctors might have overlooked which causes her depression.
- sneak 3y agoYou should always be free to destroy yourself absent any medical reason or justification. It is a personal decision and there is no reason anyone should be required to explain or justify it. We don’t require a medical reason to enhance or build our bodies, we don’t need one to damage or destroy them. I’m already allowed to eat fried foods 10 times a day and chainsmoke and do it slowly and painfully; if that is legal then anyone should be allowed to do it in a quick, painless, and dignified fashion.
- tmelm 3y agoThis makes sense to some extent (terminal illness or such), but one can argue as someone did above that if you're willing to make the permanent decision to "destroy" yourself, are you sane enough to legally make decision? Are you for sure not under temporary delusion, distress, or other threat? You can always "legally" "destroy" yourself through suicide, but if you want to involve a medical professional it seems very reasonable that you have the mental clarity to make the decision. Should it be illegal for the doctor to deny me an amputation that I ask for? After all, I should be "free to destroy myself" absent any justification?
- david-gpu 3y ago> You can always "legally" "destroy" yourself through suicide Not in a dignified, foolproof way. E.g. can you go to a pharmacy and get a dose of morphine that will kill you with certainty? You can't, in most jurisdictions. Forcing other people to deal with the trauma of cleaning up your bloody remains after you jump off a window isn't exactly compassionate either. Give people a clean way out, even if you don't want it for yourself.
- geraldwhen 3y agoThis person isn’t destroying themself. They’re forcing someone else to do it for them, and they’re shitposting online for eyeballs in the meantime. They could die at any time. This is an elaborate show by someone who needs to be told “no” and given a clear direction.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- david-gpu 3y ago> They’re forcing someone else to do it for them No health professional is being forced to assist in an euthanasia against their will. Is it so hard to believe that all the parties involved are willing participants?
- arrowsmith 3y agoI don't read that as an argument for euthanasia, I read it as an argument that individual liberty is not absolute.
- JyB 3y agoThe act of taking your own life has no reliance on countries 'recognizing' it nor promoting it. You are by definition free to do it. Being assisted in doing so is another topic.
- someotherperson 3y agoIt has little to do with an "inviolable right to self ownership" -- the overwhelming majority of the world already have that. You can eat until your jaw breaks while dedicating your life to proving a flat Earth, you can go base jumping off a cliff, or you can tattoo obscenities on your forehead. Or all of it at the same time. And it's perfectly acceptable as an action of autonomy and self-ownership. Euthanasia, or suicide, is instead a problem of diminished capacity and whether or not suicide could ever be a decision of someone who is of sound mind. Much like we don't let babies walk into traffic, believe that a 9 year old is able to consent or allow severely mentally handicapped people the ability to refuse surgery -- having legal frameworks that don't encourage these things isn't about stripping away the right to self-ownership.
- iagooar 3y agoI am terrified of the thought of legally killing people and this article has made me feel quite odd, even slightly sick I would say. My gut just screams at me: this is wrong. And I cannot help. The rational arguments do not convince me at all. Call me old fashioned or whatever but this is how I feel about it, and since there is an article about this I imagine that there might be certain interest in this being out of the ordinary.
- tafox 3y agoMaybe if we weren't treated like de facto slaves for the rich life would be worth living.
- dietr1ch 3y agoYeah, all the productivity improvements could be used to make everyone's lives better, but hey, some people really need yatchs, cars they can't really drive, multiple houses and more.
- xeornet 3y agoTotally agree. It also begs the question, are the people in these situations even mentally fit enough to make the decision rationally? With the limited context I have, I don’t think so. There’d also a lot of reliance on the doctor’s “its never going to get better” - yet time and time again with physical ailments we hear of the impossibility of recovery yet many do recover.
- xeornet 3y agoIf the downvoters would like to explain their opinion to the contrary, that would be great.
- phantomathkg 3y ago> It also begs the question, are the people in these situations even mentally fit enough to make the decision rationally? With the limited context I have, I don’t think so. Without euthanasia. A person in that situation can and will choose other means to kill himself/herself.
- croes 3y agoSo the other way aroun, physical sick and mentally healthy, isn't a problem? Isn't it about curability and pain?
- bheadmaster 3y agoI believe this is yet another case of people being skeptical about the very existence of mental illness. Euthanasia for incurable cancer patients is a no-brainer, but for incurable depression sufferers? Well, their bodies are healthy. What if it's just a phase they'll grow out of? Maybe they're just faking it? They should probably be more grateful for the gifts they've received from God, and they'll be happy. Maybe they're just bad people?
- xanderlewis 3y ago> Euthanasia for incurable cancer patients is a no-brainer This is absolutely not a universally held belief.
- bheadmaster 3y agoOf course not - no belief is. My point was that it is drastically easier to believe that euthanasia for cancer patients is okay, than for depression sufferers.
- arrowsmith 3y agoSo then why did you call it a "no-brainer"?
- hazmazlaz 3y agoBecause the obvious utility of being able to choose the manner of one's own death, to limit suffering, and to retain a bit of agency in the face of certain death, inconceivable suffering, and the loss of one's own body to cancer makes this choice quite an easy one for many.
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- noname120 3y agoI wonder if she tried MAOIs. Those are criminally underused. https://www.psychotropical.com/10-patient-stories-a-long-story-of-avoidable-suffering/ https://www.psychotropical.com/10-patient-stories-a-long-sto...
- zer00eyz 3y agoMaybe because leftovers can kill you if you're on them. They have gnarly side effects. SSRI's as well.
- Wytwwww 3y ago> leftovers can kill you Still probably worth a try, I mean doesn't seem like a big deal at all considering these circumstances. Also IIRC modern(ish) MAOIs are a lot safer.
- noname120 3y ago> Maybe because leftovers can kill you if you're on them. What?
- david-gpu 3y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor#Hypertensive_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitor#...
- noname120 3y agoHow is that related in any way to “leftovers” (whatever it's supposed to mean)? You're probably conflating it with the risk of serotonin toxicity when combined with SSRIs or without a proper washout period of 1-3 weeks depending on the SSRI. ———— Serotonin toxicity in the context of MAOIs is — just like the hyper[1] (and hypo!) tensive effects — a heavily exaggerated risk that we know how to avoid and manage thanks to the 50 years of experience we have with MAOIs. Excerpts from [1]: > The first mistaken assumption to tackle is this: the idea that a tyramine reaction will raise someone’s BP, higher and higher, until their head explodes. That simply is not a plausible scenario. > Second, the degree of elevation of BP caused by ingestion of tyramine is generally no greater than elevations produced by a host of other factors. These include, exercise, sex, stress, driving, anxiety, lifting weights — in fact just living. There is a detailed and extensively referenced commentary about that here. ———— About serotonin toxicity see these excerpts from [2]: > If somebody is already taking an SSRI antidepressant and you want to start an MAOI then you need to allow 3 to 5 half lives before doing that, that means 3 to 5 days for most drugs. Hardly a major problem. > It is perfectly possible, and often quite sensible, to try a tricyclic antidepressant like nortriptyline before an MAOI. That can act as a bridging antidepressant prior to starting an MAOI. > So, just add NTP to the SSRI, cease the SSRI immediately, or after a few days (tapering-off of the SSRI is usually not needed, unless the dose was very high); then once the SSRI is out of the system the MAOI can be started in combination with the TCA, since it is quite safe to administer TCAs and MAOIs concurrently. ———— [1] https://www.psychotropical.com/acute-tyramine-hypertension/ https://www.psychotropical.com/acute-tyramine-hypertension/ [2] https://www.psychotropical.com/maois-misconceptions-and-questions-2/ https://www.psychotropical.com/maois-misconceptions-and-ques...
- bowsamic 3y agoIt's very strange that the doctors told her "There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better." Was that an irresponsible off-hand remark or what? Especially given the disorders she has, perhaps if it was severe schizophrenia or some kind of neurogenerative disorder, but autism + depression + bpd? I highly doubt that they have exposed her to all possible treatment methods, which in my opinion they should do before allowing her to take her own life.
- bacro 3y agoThat is what I think as well. Seems very irresponsible by the doctors.
- Mashimo 3y ago> themirror Ah mate I don't know about that. > healthy young woman who struggles with crippling depression, autism and borderline personality disorder Besides a large hole and some rust, the Titanic is in tip top shape.
- majikaja 3y agohttps://www.statista.com/statistics/666480/any-mental-illness-past-year-us-women/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/666480/any-mental-illnes...
- xanderlewis 3y agoI guess we are slowly getting closer to having the suicide booths from Futurama.
- nan60 3y agoThis was a fascinating read and really got me thinking about the morality of suicide all things considered. We’ve collectively decided as a society that suicide is a bad thing, and rarely is mental health treated the same as physical in the realm of euthanasia.
- arkey 3y agoMy general experience received from doctors in my adult life has been, in summary, "Go take some Ibuprofen and stop bothering me". And because of some other, more complex cases close to me, I will NEVER trust a doctor's "Nothing else can be done". Too many times it has been proven wrong. So I can't understand someone killing themselves based on any doctor's criteria.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- emblaegh 3y agoHaven't read the article, but does it say why'd she go for euthanasia? I'd imagine there are dignified ways of bringing this matter into one's own hands. Edit: I think this may have come off as “geez just kill yourself and spare us the drama”, but I’m just genuinely curious why’d she choose one over the other whenever I assume she has the means to pursue both.
- Mashimo 3y agoWhat would be a more dignified way?
- emblaegh 3y agoI can be really wrong here, but I assumed anything a doctor can do you can do it yourself. Would need to get drugs illegally probably, but would spare the family the media circus, and the (presumed) bureaucracy of getting euthanasia approved. My question was out of genuine curiosity of her motivation of choosing one way over the other.
- tennisflyi 3y agoUh, yeah, euthanasia?
- emblaegh 3y ago“Easier and equally dignified” would make my comment clearer.
- tmelm 3y agoRough read. It's hard for me to even imagine such a state of mind, and the suffering one experiences. Somehow the fact that the euthanization takes place in your own home gives me the creeps. I really wonder what drives people to work in this space? In the case of pets or animals being put down it's a vet that does the deed, is it doctors in this case? Also, her therapist claiming that "There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better" sounds like an enormous red flag for me. Some authority should take a long hard look at a professional therapist speaking like that, especially considering the proximity/possibility of human euthanasia, or just suicide in general. I was positive to euthanasia before this article (I had considered it primarily for terminally ill people and such), but this really turned me off. I can't believe we made suicide a legal depression cure before when there's been so much talk about shrooms/acid and such perhaps being helpful.
- Mashimo 3y agoI don't want you to persuade you regarding euthanasia, but please, please don't make decisions based on "articles" from The Mirror. At least not before you tripple check the sources.
- piva00 3y ago> Somehow the fact that the euthanization takes place in your own home gives me the creeps. If I was about to die I'd much rather die in the comfort of my own home than any other place, a hospital is not a cozy place; a clinic wouldn't be either, it's still a foreign place with nothing of your life or about you around. I'd much rather die in a place I know, that I was part of creating and makes me feel comfortable in it than any other place. > I can't believe we made suicide a legal depression cure before when there's been so much talk about shrooms/acid and such perhaps being helpful. This is absurd, you're trying to decide for someone else how they should approach their own suffering, why don't let the sufferer take control? It's not up to you to decide, at all, and it's not a split-second decision, to be euthanised one has to go through consultations with professionals which might not grant it, if a panel of experts decided the person has the right to decide to kill themselves who are you to say otherwise?
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- tibbydudeza 3y agoMy BIL suffered from depression all his life - ups and downs and sometimes he had to get electroshock therapy when the meds did not work. The last time I saw him he was just like a zombie from all the medications he was on. He committed suicide just before Xmas a few years back and I had to wait for the coroner and the cops before I could move the step ladder and they kindly removed the rope from the beam. I wished he had a more dignified option available to him and that his wife did not find him like that but I doubt his family would have accepted his decision to end his own life.
- deugtniet 3y agoThis article is disingenuous by only referring to expert opinion from a Christian university, which is obviously against euthanasia. Experts from other universities would provide a more nuanced view on the subject. Furthermore when the article discusses an increase in numbers, they don't mention that 60% of euthanasia is performed for individuals who suffer from late stage cancer. Most others are generally very old, and will only suffer without remit for the rest of their lives. The procedure for this woman to have been granted euthanasia is not something that is easy to get through. It is mentioned she has suffered from this disease for all of her life and there is no cure. Multiple medical doctors need to be in agreement before a request for euthanasia is granted in any case. There is even more scrutiny when it is about a young person as well as when the disease is mental in nature. In all, I hated reading this article, because it's extremely far from the truth about how the Netherlands have implemented their euthanasia laws. I suggest reading up on it from more reputable sources than `the mirror`
- Wytwwww 3y agoFundamentally this is not different at all from suicide. Every physically healthy and conscious person is capable of committing it if they were strongly want to. So why would we as a society want to make it more acceptable and encourage people to see it as a perfectly viable option? Also where do we a draw a line? If we're talking about terminally ill patients it's usually fairly clear. Surely there are many mentally ill (suffering from severe depression etc. not intellectual disability) people who are incapable of rational reasoning (in general or under specific circumstances) so do we end up with having death panels determining who is allowed to kill themselves and who is not?
- deugtniet 3y agoThe Netherlands have drawn their line, have a look at their laws [1]. This includes a procedure where multiple medical doctors have to agree to grant someone a death with dignity. I prefer this over unbearable suffering. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_Netherlands
- pixelesque 3y agoCanada's also recently changed their laws to allow 'mental health' as a reason I think...
- up_and_out 3y ago[flagged]
- david-gpu 3y agoYour cancer went into remission, so everybody's cancer must also be curable?
- up_and_out 3y ago[flagged]
- jusssi 3y agoThe other extreme end of it though, is that we're morally obligated to force everyone into treatment, whether it helps or not. Cancer? Forced treatment. Gay? Forced treatment. Left-handed? Forced treatment. It's for your own good so you don't deserve a choice.
- david-gpu 3y agoStraw man. Nobody is suggesting euthanasia as the first line of treatment.
- deugtniet 3y agoLet's be absolutely clear, euthanasia is not widespread anywhere. It's legal in a few jurisdictions, and it's not something that is taken lightly by any party involved. It's extremely rare for a young person to be granted euthanasia in the Netherlands, and only when the individual suffers without any hope for remit. This lady has tried to be granted euthanasia for years now, after suffering from a serious disease for all her life. Without any treatment that helped her. In all those years, she has tried to cure herself of the disease, but to no consequence. I think she deserves to get what _she_ wants with dignity.
- up_and_out 3y agoFor years, I thought I'd tried everything. I was surrounded by people saying "you can't run for your problems." I'm incredibly glad I decided to ignore them as a hail mary and I'm sure as shit glad I wasn't posting here. I'd be dead with people calling me brave and saying I died with dignity. Glad I lived to instead be shamed for encouraging people to explore other options before taking a final solution. It's impossible to be more self-destructive than the people saying this is great.
- salesynerd 3y agoIt's a very difficult choice to make and I have full sympathies for the lady. I also respect herc choice, considering that it was made by her own free will and complies with the law of the land. However, I still feel a bit conflicted about this situation. As per the report, she is physically fit, has a loving boyfriend, a pet cat, and doesn't seem to be in any monetary duress. Plus, she happens to be living in one of the happiest and prosperous countries in the world. When I compare her with a vast multitude of people in developing countries who continue to toil against all odds (physical, mental, societal, economic, etc.), I feel that she should have been encouraged to not give up. An old song that has always stuck with me has lyrics that say, "there is so much pain in the world; (comparatively) my pain is so little. When I saw people's pain, I forgot my own." Of course, these are just my thoughts. I fully respect her (& everybody else's) rights to decide what's best for them. May she be at peace with her decision and enjoy her remaining days in a better frame of mind.
- nertirs 3y agoI feel the same way. I respect the woman's decision, but for me personally it is difficult to empathize with it.
- raydev 3y ago> I feel that she should have been encouraged to not give up. For how long would you say? Have they not discussed this for an extended amount of time with multiple people?
- rokkitmensch 3y agoMy partner has a loving partner, loving children, a safe home environment. Yet her abusive upbringing has left her with systemic self-regard challenges, self-regulation challenges, and very little executive functioning skills. She dips into a suicidal mode a few times a year. Some folks have mountains of internal pain and anguish that they necessarily mask from everyone around them every day. For them, the thought of the relief of death is very tempting.
- j_crick 3y agoSee, much like others you put an accent on physicalities (how she’s not in some dirty hole in a very poor and dangerous country), and then switch to relativities. But WHY do you consider it fair to compare her condition to others’? You don’t know what’s going on in her mind, you have absolutely no idea how agonizing a mental state can be. Yet you judge her as she’s perceiving things and feeling feelings just like you or anybody else. But that is not the case. The sad thing about suffering is that if you don’t encounter it before a certain individual threshold amount, it’s very easy to dismiss. For some people, encouraging them to stay here is just another pain point that you can’t even begin to fathom that you’re advocating to add to their struggle with existence. How about pausing and thinking for a second, what a real, tangible and not “socially feel-good” compassion would mean in such cases?
- i_am_programmer 3y agoIt's disheartening so many don't see the brain as a physical part of ourselves, just the mental. To describe this individual as suffering from "crippling depression" but also "physically healthy" when they clearly suffer from long term mental health problems feels like an oxymoron. I'm not sure for what reason people think everyone needs to be alive and live long natural lives. If she doesn't end her life humanely and in the comfort of trained professionals, she can just simply do it at home in a far more unpleasant way. Hope it all goes well for them.
- Wytwwww 3y ago> If she doesn't end her life humanely and in the comfort of trained professionals, she can just simply do it at home in a far more unpleasant way What's the difference? It's unavoidable that long term if assisted suicide is normalized (and even endorsed by the healthcare system) more people who wouldn't have chosen that option on their own will decide to kill themselves (or ask a doctor to do it). How do you think a person suffering from a mental illness would be affected by their psychiatrist telling them that he can't help him anymore and that maybe they should consider killing themselves? A terminal cancer patient has no hope and is doomed to die regardless of anything else. That's not the case if you suffering from a severe mental health issue: - there are many other treatment options that they didn't try (because they couldn't afford to, are not available in their home country, they aren't aware of them etc. etc.) - a definitive diagnosis is impossible, psychiatrists are not oncologists and due to the nature of the field only have a very vague understanding of what they are even doing. I'm certainly not judging the person who chose this path (even if they weren't indirectly forced into it by other people and had no other options, even if I find it hard to believe that could be the case very often) but from the perspective of the state/society/healthcare system this creates some very perverse incentives. The cost difference between investing large amounts of money into new advances/expensive (possibly not even financially but politically) treatments and using euthanasia as a way to solve the same problem (just way more effectively) is pretty big.
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- antonp 3y ago6 year old article in dutch [1] about Zoraya (the woman in question) already back then planning her premature death: > She claims the right to a dignified ending: euthanasia. "You can buy a rope, you climb up an apartment and a train also runs. But why is it made so difficult for us? Why do you have to be 75 before you have a completed life? Say that maybe we can get better? That's what you say not even against a cancer patient who has completed treatment." Rough read. Jesus. [1] https://www.tubantia.nl/oldenzaal/zonder-juiste-medicijnen-wil-zoraya-22-uit-oldenzaal-niet-verder-leven~a6575e9e/ https://www.tubantia.nl/oldenzaal/zonder-juiste-medicijnen-w...
- david-gpu 3y agoHow can she be "physically healthy" if she has depression? What is causing the depression, if not a malady of her physical body, such as her brain? It's an organ and it can be irreparably damaged, just like a kidney. "But what if she gets better?", some say. What if she doesn't? What if there is no cure in her case? You may have gotten over a case of depression yourself, just like some people have recovered from a cancer. Does that mean that all cancers patients will eventually heal? So what makes you think that depression is any different? Either way, if an adult is unwilling to live, they should be allowed to end their lives with dignity. Your desire to not go through with it yourself is not sufficient to deny it to others. We are all adults and can make our own decisions. May the earth be light upon her.
- majikaja 3y ago>What if she doesn't? What if there is no cure in her case? Would you recommend death in all circumstances just in case?
- david-gpu 3y ago> Would you recommend death in all circumstances just in case? Would you like a side of straw man with your order of controversial topic? Nobody is proposing euthanasia as a first line of treatment for anything, folks. It is a desperate measure for desperate times.
- majikaja 3y agoYou let the mentally ill person be the judge of that?
- david-gpu 3y ago> You let the mentally ill person be the judge of that? Another straw man. The patient is not the one that decides the first line of treatment, either. Nobody is walking for the first time into a clinic like it was a coffee shop and casually ordering one suicide to go. I'm afraid you will have to excuse me now.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoThe Cynic and Stoic schools of anqiue philosophy found freedom in choosing death. It's a big part of why so many big name romans fell on their swords on defeat, metaphorically or literally. Self-determination was seen as a bigger virtue than life, and e.g. Cato killing himself was regarded as a way to rob Julius Caesar of ultimate victory, turning him into a sort of martyr for the philosophy. I am willing to grant them the point that in a hypothetical society where suicide was not taboo, but an mundane and uncontroversial act, a lot of things we consider problems would vanish overnight. Indentured servitude, extortion, social injustice, slavery. All these hinge on a human being having no way out of mistreatment. In such a society, it would be largely impossible to compel anyone to do something against their will. At first glance, this seems like it would benefit the bullies, but if you think further, you realize they would find themselves completely isolated without allies. The only way to successfully work with other people would be through cooperation. It's obviously not entirely realistic to have a society that functions this way, but it's arguably an underexplored counterfactual that raises questions regarding who actually benefits from particular taboo.
- Arch-TK 3y agoI think de-stigmatizing suicide wouldn't exactly prevent slavery. The thing stopping slaves from killing themselves is probably not the social stigma surrounding suicide.
- Ajay-p 3y agoAll these hinge on a human being having no way out of mistreatment. Hope is what you may be referring to here. If a person in mistreatment could let go of hope and accept the now as the way it always will be, they would be freed to end their life and have that dignity of self determination. I have read somewhere that kidnappers will give their victims false hope of being released because it makes the victim less willing to fight back.
- raydev 3y ago> Indentured servitude, extortion, social injustice, slavery. All these hinge on a human being having no way out of mistreatment. In such a society, it would be largely impossible to compel anyone to do something against their will. Unfortunately for those of us in most of the world, we need to work jobs that may not be appealing to us at all, and may even beat us down physically and mentally over time, in order to pay bills and support families. I'd argue most people are working against their will, but it's a lever they can pull to dump money into their bank accounts. I know I wouldn't have a 9-5 job if I truly had the choice, and I happen to like my job and have fun with it most of the time!
- defrost 3y agorelated discussion from thefp.com reporting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39915254 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39915254 Related material: Dutch Euthanasia Report 2021 (English PDF): https://wfrtds.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/RTE_JV2021_ENGELS_def.pdf https://wfrtds.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/RTE_JV2021_ENG... Number cases (1998-2022): https://www.statista.com/statistics/1363041/netherlands-euthanasia/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1363041/netherlands-euth... Odd internal variations by district and other factors: https://healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/a-critical-look-at-the-rising-euthanasia-rates-in-the-netherlands.html https://healthcare-in-europe.com/en/news/a-critical-look-at-... I haven't found a before|after comparison of suicide in the area, the report distinguishes between "Termination of life on request" (the bulk of cases) and "assisted suicide" - the criteria for differentiation of these likely has to do with terminal illness and quality of life. In 2021 it was 7,459 Termination on request Vs 189 assisted suicide.
- Ajay-p 3y agoThis one I struggle with. I believe in the right of self determination but I cannot help but ask the question "Have you tried..?" ..because mental can be cured for some. For others it is unassailable. The most natural course is to encourage someone with a mental condition to try these other things first, but I would not ask the same of someone with a physical condition, but with the brain we know very little. It is a struggle between providing support for a person who has chosen to end their life, and not standing in their way should they ultimately choose to go forward.
- silverquiet 3y agoI'd respond to your question "Have you tried.."? with the question, "who's going to pay for it?". You could spend a fortune on a variety of mental health treatments, but if you're unable to work due to depression, you probably don't have a fortune, and in the US, you don't even have health insurance. And when you find out how much people are really willing to help in the monetary sense (probably not very much), it certainly isn't going to help your depression.
- syngrog66 3y agoshould not be on HN
- nrdxp 3y agoPhysically healthy how? Just because she doesn't have any medical conditions or because she exercises on a regular basis. In the latter case, recent studies have shown exercise to be even more effective than medication or therapy. As so keeping a clean diet (which is so much harder than anyone realizes with all the petro-chemicals everywhere). I feel like this used to be (if not for the mass indoctrination by the church of Big Pharma) common sense. It's a little silly to encourage or enable such a young woman to take such a drastic step without asking critical questions and trying to address the problem, and then acting like your morally superior for supporting "her choice". If you really gave a damn, maybe you actually encourage her toward life, but so many nowadays are so hopelessly nihilistic they would just as soon join her. Sad.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoAn existentially unfulfilled life can be as much of a prison or torture as any physical illness. Treatment resistant depression also can cause great suffering. If I were in the condition of disability that denied living a full life, I would also contemplate an orderly shuffling off of this mortal coil. The problem now is that having raised a taboo personal right, the knee-jerk clinical patronizing automatic response is to provide therapy, counseling, and mood altering medications perhaps up to and including involuntary treatment without informed consent. They then become caught in a Catch-22 that does not prioritize an individual's wishes.