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From what I recall of Yugoslavia - Milosevic was rounding up civilians explicitly. Here we have a war. You cannot compare the two, not to mention the 31k numb

From what I recall of Yugoslavia - Milosevic was rounding up civilians explicitly. Here we have a war. You cannot compare the two, not to mention the 31k number being unhinged from any credible source.

robbomacrae 3y ago
I, at least, had sources. I tried looking evidence of this new fact about Yugoslavia you presented but could not find any. It was called the Kosovo war. Why can we not compare the two? They seem VERY comparable to me. But if Wikipedia and Al Jazeera are not good enough for you then you will see the following orgs also posted these numbers: NPR [0], BBC [1], NYTimes [2]. And if your worried those numbers are inflated there is an article in the Lancet that shows if anything it is the opposite [3]. [0]: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30... [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6Ny8_QViY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6Ny8_QViY [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/world/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/world/middleeast/gaza-dea... [3]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
NomDePlum 3y ago
What is the war you talk of? I have, from the UK, seem zero presence of any war in 2024. Seen plenty of what looks like vile and indescrimate killing of random civilians by Israel. Is the war the one that's killing multiple aid volunteers, or something else?
- xyzelement 3y ago
  It sounds like you are unaware on the attack on Israel in October that intentionally killed about 1.5k civilians of which the current action is the consequence.
  - NomDePlum 3y ago
    Also, where did you get the number 1.5k from? That figure was corrected a number of months back to 1.2k was it not. The most accurate figure I've seen stated is 11,600, although it doesn't seem to be in widespread use, although the 1,200 figure is often caveated. The total isn't all civilians. No official figures have been released on the split is my understanding. It's also not clear how many are attributable to Israel's response, but it's clearly non-zero and may well be a significant proportion.
  - NomDePlum 3y ago
    That was as horrific a day as the world had seen for a long time. It's not a war though. Unfortunately every day in Gaza since has been as horrific, or more horrific. Indescriminately killing and starving an entire population and destroying the surrounding infrastructure is not warfare. The actions described in the linked article make this clear.
    - flyinglizard 3y ago
      I don’t think it was starving civilians who killed 250+ Israeli soldiers over the last six months following the Gaza attack. Do you?
      - NomDePlum 3y ago
        It's hard to speculate on the circumstances of their deaths given there is no reliable independent reporting on it, but I'll give it a go as you asked. Certainly starving civilians are being killed by the IDF. I'd be shocked if some of the deaths aren't related to self-defence. Given there look to be credible reports of the IDF operating kill zones, and allowing on the ground soldiers to set their own rules of engagement, as well as making it generally clear it's little issue in collateral deaths it's difficult to have much empathy with those numbers. A number will be attributable to friendly fire and accident too. It wouldn't surprise me if that's a significant proportion, potentially the majority given the level of sniping, significant munitions and general anarchy. Finally, I'm sure some are as a direct result of actual engagement with Hamas. Any reporting by the IDF is obviously security checked propoganda, filtered through multiple levels of approvals and inspection.

robbomacrae 3y ago

I, at least, had sources. I tried looking evidence of this new fact about Yugoslavia you presented but could not find any. It was called the Kosovo war. Why can we not compare the two? They seem VERY comparable to me. But if Wikipedia and Al Jazeera are not good enough for you then you will see the following orgs also posted these numbers: NPR [0], BBC [1], NYTimes [2]. And if your worried those numbers are inflated there is an article in the Lancet that shows if anything it is the opposite [3]. [0]: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30... [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6Ny8_QViY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6Ny8_QViY [2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/world/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/29/world/middleeast/gaza-dea... [3]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

NomDePlum 3y ago

What is the war you talk of? I have, from the UK, seem zero presence of any war in 2024. Seen plenty of what looks like vile and indescrimate killing of random civilians by Israel. Is the war the one that's killing multiple aid volunteers, or something else?

xyzelement 3y ago
It sounds like you are unaware on the attack on Israel in October that intentionally killed about 1.5k civilians of which the current action is the consequence.
- NomDePlum 3y ago
  Also, where did you get the number 1.5k from? That figure was corrected a number of months back to 1.2k was it not. The most accurate figure I've seen stated is 11,600, although it doesn't seem to be in widespread use, although the 1,200 figure is often caveated. The total isn't all civilians. No official figures have been released on the split is my understanding. It's also not clear how many are attributable to Israel's response, but it's clearly non-zero and may well be a significant proportion.
- NomDePlum 3y ago
  That was as horrific a day as the world had seen for a long time. It's not a war though. Unfortunately every day in Gaza since has been as horrific, or more horrific. Indescriminately killing and starving an entire population and destroying the surrounding infrastructure is not warfare. The actions described in the linked article make this clear.
  - flyinglizard 3y ago
    I don’t think it was starving civilians who killed 250+ Israeli soldiers over the last six months following the Gaza attack. Do you?
    - NomDePlum 3y ago
      It's hard to speculate on the circumstances of their deaths given there is no reliable independent reporting on it, but I'll give it a go as you asked. Certainly starving civilians are being killed by the IDF. I'd be shocked if some of the deaths aren't related to self-defence. Given there look to be credible reports of the IDF operating kill zones, and allowing on the ground soldiers to set their own rules of engagement, as well as making it generally clear it's little issue in collateral deaths it's difficult to have much empathy with those numbers. A number will be attributable to friendly fire and accident too. It wouldn't surprise me if that's a significant proportion, potentially the majority given the level of sniping, significant munitions and general anarchy. Finally, I'm sure some are as a direct result of actual engagement with Hamas. Any reporting by the IDF is obviously security checked propoganda, filtered through multiple levels of approvals and inspection.