3 ms·

Out of curiosity, what did they say to try and coerce you into admitting something. I want to look out for red flags in the future.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago
Not OP but I had an experience like this recently. A toxic manager hated me and other employees, and wanted to fire me in the quickest way possible. He started to give me tasks that were clearly illegal, like sending the passwords of the company by email to random people (contractors included which made it more obvious). I refused for two weeks while providing alternative solutions but this sociopath still was not happy. HR got involved somehow, but instead of siding with me, they told me in the nicest way that I would be a good employee if I obeyed and sent private data by email. It was obvious this time that they were building a case against me, because I knew what they were capable of. But younger me would have happily complied and break the law because, after all, HR is good for the employees and are not talking to the managers behind your back, right? So, the red flag is "when HR is nice to you." Never forget that they also obey the orders of the managers. Also they will happily forge emails to fire you. I’ve seen that more than once, and they’ll pretend it never happened. That’s why you must keep traces of email conversations if you feel something is wrong.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  It's nuts that this isn't nuts. Holy cow. Really re-proves the advice: Save everything. Volunteer nothing. And do both with neither emotion nor apology. It's just basic formality everyone should always do at this point.
- apwell23 3y ago
  Does HR really require a legitimate cause to fire someone. Why do they care ?
Brian_K_White 3y ago
Oh nothing crazy like framing for a scandal or crime or anything like that. Just low level trying to collect anything that could possibly be used to get out of paying a little, like if I didn't answer an email one day maybe that means I didn't work that day and they only have to pay me one day less on my last paycheck? Or less likely but worth a shot, anything that could be possible to turn into termination for cause, though I don't even know what they would get out of that? Does it even change anything about what they have to pay for things like unemployment insurance? I never did nor ever intended to even apply for unemployment but even if I did does that even affect them? If you quit amicably for your own reasons isn't that the best of all possible ways for an employee to leave for them? Maybe they were just trying to make sure that I wasn't going to try to say something about them afterwards and just trying to arm themselves in case I did? Actually that sounds the most likely now that I think about it, because it fits in a few different ways in their particular case. The details will be different in each case, and in my case I don't know how to translate them to equivalent generic examples, and the actual details would get more detailed than I want to get from a non-anonymous account. Not because I have anything to hide, because I think I am actually still subject to a no-disparagement clause even though I am in no contract with them since years ago. I do know that I don't want to get into a lawyer dick-waving contest with them. So about that clause, remember above when I said maybe they were just preparing in case I was planning to badmouth them? Let's just say there is a reason they have that clause, and so a reason they might worry about that at every termination. Anyway, in general, no longer talking about the wonderful nameless company that I am not at all disparaging, when I say obvious I don't just mean obvious to me because I'm a perceptive genius or a wizened old vet that's seen it all. (hey I'm both but beside the point ;) Some questions or remarks would be obviously adversarial, like asking why you took so many days off or whatever (it wasn't that). Whether you choose to engage and defend or not, either way you know the question was not for example aimed at making sure you didn't lose out on some extra days you might be entitled to. It's possible but there is no reason to operate from that assumption as most likely. Others are indirect and less obvious, like the example I did give like if they ask why are you leaving, or even what could we do better? etc. Those kinds of things that could be legit sincere feedback, are also merely sources of material that can be used for any purpose, not just good or sincere or constructive purposes. You don't need to think of any particular example of a nefarious intention and then see if it is convincing or likely, or fail to. The intended purpose of the answer to any question doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is material you supply and then they have forever, in their own private files, which you are no longer in the room to weigh in on whenever someone wants to look at that file and use the material as part of whatever story they want to tell for whatever reason. So the rule for how to handle that is simple, you simply volunteer nothing in the first place, regardless, as a formality, nothing personal, etc.

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 3y ago

Not OP but I had an experience like this recently. A toxic manager hated me and other employees, and wanted to fire me in the quickest way possible. He started to give me tasks that were clearly illegal, like sending the passwords of the company by email to random people (contractors included which made it more obvious). I refused for two weeks while providing alternative solutions but this sociopath still was not happy. HR got involved somehow, but instead of siding with me, they told me in the nicest way that I would be a good employee if I obeyed and sent private data by email. It was obvious this time that they were building a case against me, because I knew what they were capable of. But younger me would have happily complied and break the law because, after all, HR is good for the employees and are not talking to the managers behind your back, right? So, the red flag is "when HR is nice to you." Never forget that they also obey the orders of the managers. Also they will happily forge emails to fire you. I’ve seen that more than once, and they’ll pretend it never happened. That’s why you must keep traces of email conversations if you feel something is wrong.

Brian_K_White 3y ago
It's nuts that this isn't nuts. Holy cow. Really re-proves the advice: Save everything. Volunteer nothing. And do both with neither emotion nor apology. It's just basic formality everyone should always do at this point.
apwell23 3y ago
Does HR really require a legitimate cause to fire someone. Why do they care ?

Brian_K_White 3y ago

Oh nothing crazy like framing for a scandal or crime or anything like that. Just low level trying to collect anything that could possibly be used to get out of paying a little, like if I didn't answer an email one day maybe that means I didn't work that day and they only have to pay me one day less on my last paycheck? Or less likely but worth a shot, anything that could be possible to turn into termination for cause, though I don't even know what they would get out of that? Does it even change anything about what they have to pay for things like unemployment insurance? I never did nor ever intended to even apply for unemployment but even if I did does that even affect them? If you quit amicably for your own reasons isn't that the best of all possible ways for an employee to leave for them? Maybe they were just trying to make sure that I wasn't going to try to say something about them afterwards and just trying to arm themselves in case I did? Actually that sounds the most likely now that I think about it, because it fits in a few different ways in their particular case. The details will be different in each case, and in my case I don't know how to translate them to equivalent generic examples, and the actual details would get more detailed than I want to get from a non-anonymous account. Not because I have anything to hide, because I think I am actually still subject to a no-disparagement clause even though I am in no contract with them since years ago. I do know that I don't want to get into a lawyer dick-waving contest with them. So about that clause, remember above when I said maybe they were just preparing in case I was planning to badmouth them? Let's just say there is a reason they have that clause, and so a reason they might worry about that at every termination. Anyway, in general, no longer talking about the wonderful nameless company that I am not at all disparaging, when I say obvious I don't just mean obvious to me because I'm a perceptive genius or a wizened old vet that's seen it all. (hey I'm both but beside the point ;) Some questions or remarks would be obviously adversarial, like asking why you took so many days off or whatever (it wasn't that). Whether you choose to engage and defend or not, either way you know the question was not for example aimed at making sure you didn't lose out on some extra days you might be entitled to. It's possible but there is no reason to operate from that assumption as most likely. Others are indirect and less obvious, like the example I did give like if they ask why are you leaving, or even what could we do better? etc. Those kinds of things that could be legit sincere feedback, are also merely sources of material that can be used for any purpose, not just good or sincere or constructive purposes. You don't need to think of any particular example of a nefarious intention and then see if it is convincing or likely, or fail to. The intended purpose of the answer to any question doesn't matter. All that matters is that it is material you supply and then they have forever, in their own private files, which you are no longer in the room to weigh in on whenever someone wants to look at that file and use the material as part of whatever story they want to tell for whatever reason. So the rule for how to handle that is simple, you simply volunteer nothing in the first place, regardless, as a formality, nothing personal, etc.