4 ms·

This is not about whether that is a problem or not, but rather whether the government should be the one fixing it. These type of issues are very murky and have

by proc0 3y ago

This is not about whether that is a problem or not, but rather whether the government should be the one fixing it. These type of issues are very murky and have a lot of subtle exceptions, there is no way they can create a law that would properly address the problems without creating new ones. Government is just not the right tool here. It's like using a flamethrower to toast some bread.

randomdata 3y ago
Government is just a group of employees who work for the people. The people call on these employees to perform cleanup when outliers are compromising the wishes of the general population. What cleanup is necessary here? If everyone didn't want to read email after work they'd simply not do it, of course! What is happening, though, is that most people do not engage in after-work emails and calls, but a small group of people are going "above and beyond" in an effort be more competitive in the workplace. This has placed the general population in a situation where they are feeling increased pressure to also go "above and beyond" to remain competitive alongside. Something they do not want to do, something they find a need to correct. Let's face it, there are workers out there who have clear distain for other workers and left to their own devices will do all kinds of crazy things to ensure that they screw over the other worker sitting beside them out of a job. They will accept less pay, longer hours, unsafe environments, what have you just to fuck over the other guy. And if it means reading emails at all hours of the day to compromise their neighbour, they will do it! That's why we find labour laws of all sorts to quash such behaviour. This is just yet another instance. You are quite right that the people often don't consider the unintended consequences, but they also have a problem at hand and government is the tool they know. It may not be the right tool, but I also don't see suggestion of what the better tool is. You can't use tools you are unaware of. It is no surprise the people are not reaching for whatever this unknown better tool is.
- aebtebeten 3y ago
  See also https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 There's no law against chewing rocks or sticking a fork in your ass until, for whatever unfathomable reason, a bunch of people start doing it in a manner that inconveniences everyone else.
- proc0 3y ago
  An employer can fire employees for literally no reason, right? Even if there are protected categories of people that could sue an employer for unjust termination, this can be easily circumvented. If people can be fired for no reason, then dictating how companies should be using email is pointless and will create more problems that it will solve. The real solution here would be that you can't fire someone just because someone else is more productive... except that would go against at-will employment and would crush small companies that will not be able to take on the risk. Additionally, some people are just more productive by nature, and not trying to do it because they hate their coworkers. Some people are better at things than other people, this is just natural and trying to control it and equalize the playing field would be catastrophic. I think if someone is in a position where their coworkers are outperforming to the point that person feels overwhelmed, then that job is probably not the right match and they need to keep looking until they find that intersection of something they are naturally good at and something a company needs.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > An employer can fire employees for literally no reason, right? Not where I am located, no. In some places, sure. > The real solution here would be that you can't fire someone just because someone else is more productive... Is it? We also already have the no email/calls law on the books here. In fact, we have all kinds of labour laws. By the same logic, if you can't fire someone for charging too much you shouldn't need minimum wage, but we have that too. If you can't fire someone for refusing to work in unsafe conditions, you shouldn't need workplace safety laws either, but we also have those. And for good reason. It is not the threat of being fired, at least not exclusively so, that creates these competitive conditions.
    - proc0 3y ago
      I don't think this is about safety though. Some laws are justified, but answering emails after hours seems a bit of a stretch. Someone getting physically injured is bad enough to require a law, but someone getting a little more stressed or having to look for a better match in a different company is not bad enough for government to be stepping in. There is nothing wrong with working after 5pm, it's really a matter of preference, and government enforcing one way or another would be a huge mistake. To flip your examples, why not have government enforce everything about all jobs? Why not have all jobs be 9-5, in office, only 5 meetings a week, etc. etc., and if companies deviate they have to pay money... hopefully you can see that would destroy the economy with companies grinding to halt in terms of productivity. I think this line is somewhere around physical injuries or really extreme scenarios, and yes this means that right now even in the U.S., the gov. (especially CA) has too many laws around employment.

by proc0 3y ago

randomdata 3y ago

Government is just a group of employees who work for the people. The people call on these employees to perform cleanup when outliers are compromising the wishes of the general population. What cleanup is necessary here? If everyone didn't want to read email after work they'd simply not do it, of course! What is happening, though, is that most people do not engage in after-work emails and calls, but a small group of people are going "above and beyond" in an effort be more competitive in the workplace. This has placed the general population in a situation where they are feeling increased pressure to also go "above and beyond" to remain competitive alongside. Something they do not want to do, something they find a need to correct. Let's face it, there are workers out there who have clear distain for other workers and left to their own devices will do all kinds of crazy things to ensure that they screw over the other worker sitting beside them out of a job. They will accept less pay, longer hours, unsafe environments, what have you just to fuck over the other guy. And if it means reading emails at all hours of the day to compromise their neighbour, they will do it! That's why we find labour laws of all sorts to quash such behaviour. This is just yet another instance. You are quite right that the people often don't consider the unintended consequences, but they also have a problem at hand and government is the tool they know. It may not be the right tool, but I also don't see suggestion of what the better tool is. You can't use tools you are unaware of. It is no surprise the people are not reaching for whatever this unknown better tool is.

aebtebeten 3y ago
See also https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 There's no law against chewing rocks or sticking a fork in your ass until, for whatever unfathomable reason, a bunch of people start doing it in a manner that inconveniences everyone else.
proc0 3y ago
An employer can fire employees for literally no reason, right? Even if there are protected categories of people that could sue an employer for unjust termination, this can be easily circumvented. If people can be fired for no reason, then dictating how companies should be using email is pointless and will create more problems that it will solve. The real solution here would be that you can't fire someone just because someone else is more productive... except that would go against at-will employment and would crush small companies that will not be able to take on the risk. Additionally, some people are just more productive by nature, and not trying to do it because they hate their coworkers. Some people are better at things than other people, this is just natural and trying to control it and equalize the playing field would be catastrophic. I think if someone is in a position where their coworkers are outperforming to the point that person feels overwhelmed, then that job is probably not the right match and they need to keep looking until they find that intersection of something they are naturally good at and something a company needs.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > An employer can fire employees for literally no reason, right? Not where I am located, no. In some places, sure. > The real solution here would be that you can't fire someone just because someone else is more productive... Is it? We also already have the no email/calls law on the books here. In fact, we have all kinds of labour laws. By the same logic, if you can't fire someone for charging too much you shouldn't need minimum wage, but we have that too. If you can't fire someone for refusing to work in unsafe conditions, you shouldn't need workplace safety laws either, but we also have those. And for good reason. It is not the threat of being fired, at least not exclusively so, that creates these competitive conditions.
  - proc0 3y ago
    I don't think this is about safety though. Some laws are justified, but answering emails after hours seems a bit of a stretch. Someone getting physically injured is bad enough to require a law, but someone getting a little more stressed or having to look for a better match in a different company is not bad enough for government to be stepping in. There is nothing wrong with working after 5pm, it's really a matter of preference, and government enforcing one way or another would be a huge mistake. To flip your examples, why not have government enforce everything about all jobs? Why not have all jobs be 9-5, in office, only 5 meetings a week, etc. etc., and if companies deviate they have to pay money... hopefully you can see that would destroy the economy with companies grinding to halt in terms of productivity. I think this line is somewhere around physical injuries or really extreme scenarios, and yes this means that right now even in the U.S., the gov. (especially CA) has too many laws around employment.