7 ms·

An open Letter to Women in Tech

14 points by mikecane 14y ago

ckolderup 14y ago
One of the things I think he's overlooking: Frequently the reason that people don't go the extra mile of giving talks or otherwise sharing their thoughts and experiences is that they think that they're not good enough or worth less than other people. Sometimes this results in someone with a really great idea or a unique voice staying quiet. In an industry dominated by men, women have been discouraged from participating or speaking up. It takes time and effort to reverse that damage. I'm glad that he took the time to invite women specifically, but I think his anger at the result is misplaced when it could be more effectively directed at a system that holds decades of inequality in place.
- roopeshv 14y ago
  fuck. same can be said of geeks who don't speak up. there is no one advocating for them. if the stage is open, and you don't take the fucking chance to get in, don't complain.
  - sp332 14y ago
    Having "too few" women give talks isn't a problem. It's just a symptom of the fact that the community is unwelcoming toward women. That's what we're really trying to fix.
    - factorial 14y ago
      Why do you assume that the community is unwelcoming toward women? Isn't it just equally plausible that women just don't really want to be in technology-oriented fields? Maybe they just much rather prefer other areas. I know, the thought that men and women are actually different is deeply troubling to those who think that the only differentiator beween the sexes are a couple of sex organs.
      - sp332 14y ago
        I'm not just making assumptions. e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731441 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3894404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3894404 and https://plus.google.com/106119964731604142156/posts/DkFAzuwmcTW https://plus.google.com/106119964731604142156/posts/DkFAzuwm... and a lot of other stories. I do believe that's the only difference, actually. Girls are not encouraged to enter tech nearly as often as boys are. Also they have fewer women as role models in tech. So it's not surprising that they don't enter the field as often.
        factorial 14y ago
        Hmm... Couldn't it just be that men are discouraged (!) from entering basically any field other than science/technology these days? Just have a look at the gender distribution in most majors. Why is nobody making a fuss about creating more "education opportunities" for men in medicine, journalism, communications, education, or just about college in general?
        sp332 14y ago
        No. There is a shortage of software engineers right now. And geeks might be cooler than they used to be but that doesn't mean that everyone is a geek.
        factorial 14y ago
        Huh? How does this relate to anything either you or I have written in this thread? Now all of a sudden we have to get more women into tech because there is a "shortage right now". Why not motivate more men who may be more interested in tech to begin with? By the way, the alleged shortage is addressed by H1-B visas. They have the welcome side effect of driving down prices of domestic developers, and if this doesn't help, the corporations just collude a tiny little bit and make anti-poaching agreements.
        14y ago
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Two interesting aspects of your argument here. One, you've quietly dismissed any possible sexism. And two, after accurately pointing out a problem, your solution is basically, "well fuck them, then." Nice. I've been involved in selecting conference speakers, and we went out of our way to find geeks who aren't used to speaking up. Quiet people often have the most interesting things to say.
tomjen3 14y ago
Just a quick question: has there been any research indicating that more females want to be in tech? That females are unfairly (ie other than ability) excluded? I realize this may seem a silly question, but so far all I have heard is what percentage of females are programmers, but by the same argument men are being prevented from getting a career in nursing.
- sp332 14y ago
  This article has some information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1643180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1643180
  - factorial 14y ago
    Maybe you should read the referred article and the comment thread on techcrunch.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
jamiew 14y ago
I'm amazed anybody, male or female, would speak at an event where tickets cost $600 and they won't even pay for speakers' airfare & lodging.
- aspir 14y ago
  Conferences are lower margin than you think, particularly in tech. They're normally thrown for the good of the community or as a loss leader for some other business/product. If you're lucky, there's a slim profit that can be reinvested into the next conference, or that allows you to pay yourself for the insane hours put into planning. In all, tech conferences are generally a labor of love.
  - factorial 14y ago
    This certainly does not apply to conferences that cost a cool four figures to attend and are geared towards the corporate market. Nobody can tell me that the organizers are not making money.
    - aspir 14y ago
      Oh definitely -- Legal, Medical, Real Estate, "Corporate Leadership" -- those guys are definitely out for the payday. They also usually are thrown by niche publication/magazine firms, so there's even more to be made.
- wpietri 14y ago
  I think that's pretty typical for a conference the speaker would have attended anyhow. I've certainly spoken at conferences like that and been quite happy about it.
adrianhoward 14y ago
This post prompted me to go check the people we accepted onto the UX stage of Agile 2012 - and we have a 50/50 male/female split. Merit based - sex wasn't a factor in picking speakers. Makes me rather proud of the community we've built up in that particular field over the years. And community building is what changes things in my experience. People attend conferences to have fun and learn. Speaker or audience. Lose some of that in however small a way for some group and you start losing traction with that group. I know people who don't attend particular events, or in a few cases conferences in general, because various attendees or organisers or sponsors acted like asshats. Word spreads and it affects future years attendance and submissions if the organisers aren't proactive about dealing with the situation. Even worse it casts a general air of malaise over the whole field. Attend two different conferences in a row where you're made to feel uncomfortable in one way or another, and it makes you a little less likely to attend the third.... an so things spiral... The door maybe open - but people's views are tainted by discovering what was actually behind some other supposedly open doors.
- ryandvm 14y ago
  > we have a 50/50 male/female split. Merit based - sex wasn't a factor in picking speakers In a field overpopulated by males at a rate of about 9:1, half of the most qualified speakers you picked were female? Statistically, that doesn't reflect well on the skill of men. I would have expected a merit-based selection process to produce candidates in the same sex ratio as the sampled population. I had no idea a woman was four times as valuable as a man...
  - adrianhoward 14y ago
    In a field overpopulated by males at a rate of about 9:1 Intriguing. Where did you get this statistic on folk qualified to speak on integrating UX and Agile? It's a fairly narrow field that I'm intimately familiar with and I've never come across a gender breakdown. Oh wait... the Agile 2012 submission process is an open one... so I can just go look to see what sessions were submitted. Of the 51 session proposals submitted to the UX stage there were 19 female and 40 male speakers (this adds up to more than 51 because some sessions had multiple speakers) - so judging by submissions that ratio is 2:1. If we only look at the primary speaker of each session we have a 8/5 split. So, statistically, the men don't come off too badly. Good for us boys. If you're worried about a gender bias in the CFP then you can find an example at http://www.ixda.org/node/31640 http://www.ixda.org/node/31640 - they were sent to many other places but were all pretty much variations on the same theme. The session reviews and session submissions are public. Just register at http://submit2012.agilealliance.org/ http://submit2012.agilealliance.org/ and browse around. If you detected a bias that has caused us to reject an excellent submission please let me know. Wouldn't want that. We try an make the submission process better each year. One way that the Agile 20XX conferences differ from many others is that we have a public review process. The review panel gives feedback on proposals - and submitters have a chance to clarify and improve their session proposals. I'm too lazy to go through the history of each session to see whether women were more likely to improve their sessions based on feedback. Can't say I noticed any difference at the time - but it's possible that may explain the difference. [Edit: Hmmm... it might be a factor at that. More men submitted at the last minute when there wasn't enough time for submissions to be updated after the reviewers feedback - so they lost out on a couple of potential feedback loops.] I had no idea a woman was four times as valuable as a man... Or maybe it's just that we try quite hard not to say things like this. [Edit: removed one unnecessarily harsh word]
hej 14y ago
Nice victim blaming.
- roopeshv 14y ago
  oh, fucking stop with the victimization complex.
  - hej 14y ago
    Get off your blinders is all I can say.
    - roopeshv 14y ago
      first you open your eyes
    - factorial 14y ago
      Oh, are you a Swede by any chance ("hej")? In your country, women think it's perfectly acceptable to accuse men of taking up too much space when sitting their legs apart when the seat next to them is empty. Google "Macho i Kollektivtraffiken" and shake your head. http://www.thelocal.se/39086/20120213/ http://www.thelocal.se/39086/20120213/

14 points by mikecane 14y ago

One of the things I think he's overlooking: Frequently the reason that people don't go the extra mile of giving talks or otherwise sharing their thoughts and experiences is that they think that they're not good enough or worth less than other people. Sometimes this results in someone with a really great idea or a unique voice staying quiet. In an industry dominated by men, women have been discouraged from participating or speaking up. It takes time and effort to reverse that damage. I'm glad that he took the time to invite women specifically, but I think his anger at the result is misplaced when it could be more effectively directed at a system that holds decades of inequality in place.

roopeshv 14y ago
fuck. same can be said of geeks who don't speak up. there is no one advocating for them. if the stage is open, and you don't take the fucking chance to get in, don't complain.
- sp332 14y ago
  Having "too few" women give talks isn't a problem. It's just a symptom of the fact that the community is unwelcoming toward women. That's what we're really trying to fix.
  - factorial 14y ago
    Why do you assume that the community is unwelcoming toward women? Isn't it just equally plausible that women just don't really want to be in technology-oriented fields? Maybe they just much rather prefer other areas. I know, the thought that men and women are actually different is deeply troubling to those who think that the only differentiator beween the sexes are a couple of sex organs.
    - sp332 14y ago
      I'm not just making assumptions. e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3731441 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3894404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3894404 and https://plus.google.com/106119964731604142156/posts/DkFAzuwmcTW https://plus.google.com/106119964731604142156/posts/DkFAzuwm... and a lot of other stories. I do believe that's the only difference, actually. Girls are not encouraged to enter tech nearly as often as boys are. Also they have fewer women as role models in tech. So it's not surprising that they don't enter the field as often.
      - factorial 14y ago
        Hmm... Couldn't it just be that men are discouraged (!) from entering basically any field other than science/technology these days? Just have a look at the gender distribution in most majors. Why is nobody making a fuss about creating more "education opportunities" for men in medicine, journalism, communications, education, or just about college in general?
        sp332 14y ago
        No. There is a shortage of software engineers right now. And geeks might be cooler than they used to be but that doesn't mean that everyone is a geek.
        factorial 14y ago
        Huh? How does this relate to anything either you or I have written in this thread? Now all of a sudden we have to get more women into tech because there is a "shortage right now". Why not motivate more men who may be more interested in tech to begin with? By the way, the alleged shortage is addressed by H1-B visas. They have the welcome side effect of driving down prices of domestic developers, and if this doesn't help, the corporations just collude a tiny little bit and make anti-poaching agreements.
        14y ago
- wpietri 14y ago
  Two interesting aspects of your argument here. One, you've quietly dismissed any possible sexism. And two, after accurately pointing out a problem, your solution is basically, "well fuck them, then." Nice. I've been involved in selecting conference speakers, and we went out of our way to find geeks who aren't used to speaking up. Quiet people often have the most interesting things to say.

tomjen3 14y ago

Just a quick question: has there been any research indicating that more females want to be in tech? That females are unfairly (ie other than ability) excluded? I realize this may seem a silly question, but so far all I have heard is what percentage of females are programmers, but by the same argument men are being prevented from getting a career in nursing.

sp332 14y ago
This article has some information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1643180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1643180
- factorial 14y ago
  Maybe you should read the referred article and the comment thread on techcrunch.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

jamiew 14y ago

I'm amazed anybody, male or female, would speak at an event where tickets cost $600 and they won't even pay for speakers' airfare & lodging.

aspir 14y ago
Conferences are lower margin than you think, particularly in tech. They're normally thrown for the good of the community or as a loss leader for some other business/product. If you're lucky, there's a slim profit that can be reinvested into the next conference, or that allows you to pay yourself for the insane hours put into planning. In all, tech conferences are generally a labor of love.
- factorial 14y ago
  This certainly does not apply to conferences that cost a cool four figures to attend and are geared towards the corporate market. Nobody can tell me that the organizers are not making money.
  - aspir 14y ago
    Oh definitely -- Legal, Medical, Real Estate, "Corporate Leadership" -- those guys are definitely out for the payday. They also usually are thrown by niche publication/magazine firms, so there's even more to be made.
wpietri 14y ago
I think that's pretty typical for a conference the speaker would have attended anyhow. I've certainly spoken at conferences like that and been quite happy about it.

adrianhoward 14y ago

This post prompted me to go check the people we accepted onto the UX stage of Agile 2012 - and we have a 50/50 male/female split. Merit based - sex wasn't a factor in picking speakers. Makes me rather proud of the community we've built up in that particular field over the years. And community building is what changes things in my experience. People attend conferences to have fun and learn. Speaker or audience. Lose some of that in however small a way for some group and you start losing traction with that group. I know people who don't attend particular events, or in a few cases conferences in general, because various attendees or organisers or sponsors acted like asshats. Word spreads and it affects future years attendance and submissions if the organisers aren't proactive about dealing with the situation. Even worse it casts a general air of malaise over the whole field. Attend two different conferences in a row where you're made to feel uncomfortable in one way or another, and it makes you a little less likely to attend the third.... an so things spiral... The door maybe open - but people's views are tainted by discovering what was actually behind some other supposedly open doors.

ryandvm 14y ago
> we have a 50/50 male/female split. Merit based - sex wasn't a factor in picking speakers In a field overpopulated by males at a rate of about 9:1, half of the most qualified speakers you picked were female? Statistically, that doesn't reflect well on the skill of men. I would have expected a merit-based selection process to produce candidates in the same sex ratio as the sampled population. I had no idea a woman was four times as valuable as a man...
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  In a field overpopulated by males at a rate of about 9:1 Intriguing. Where did you get this statistic on folk qualified to speak on integrating UX and Agile? It's a fairly narrow field that I'm intimately familiar with and I've never come across a gender breakdown. Oh wait... the Agile 2012 submission process is an open one... so I can just go look to see what sessions were submitted. Of the 51 session proposals submitted to the UX stage there were 19 female and 40 male speakers (this adds up to more than 51 because some sessions had multiple speakers) - so judging by submissions that ratio is 2:1. If we only look at the primary speaker of each session we have a 8/5 split. So, statistically, the men don't come off too badly. Good for us boys. If you're worried about a gender bias in the CFP then you can find an example at http://www.ixda.org/node/31640 http://www.ixda.org/node/31640 - they were sent to many other places but were all pretty much variations on the same theme. The session reviews and session submissions are public. Just register at http://submit2012.agilealliance.org/ http://submit2012.agilealliance.org/ and browse around. If you detected a bias that has caused us to reject an excellent submission please let me know. Wouldn't want that. We try an make the submission process better each year. One way that the Agile 20XX conferences differ from many others is that we have a public review process. The review panel gives feedback on proposals - and submitters have a chance to clarify and improve their session proposals. I'm too lazy to go through the history of each session to see whether women were more likely to improve their sessions based on feedback. Can't say I noticed any difference at the time - but it's possible that may explain the difference. [Edit: Hmmm... it might be a factor at that. More men submitted at the last minute when there wasn't enough time for submissions to be updated after the reviewers feedback - so they lost out on a couple of potential feedback loops.] I had no idea a woman was four times as valuable as a man... Or maybe it's just that we try quite hard not to say things like this. [Edit: removed one unnecessarily harsh word]

hej 14y ago

Nice victim blaming.

roopeshv 14y ago
oh, fucking stop with the victimization complex.
- hej 14y ago
  Get off your blinders is all I can say.
  - roopeshv 14y ago
    first you open your eyes
  - factorial 14y ago
    Oh, are you a Swede by any chance ("hej")? In your country, women think it's perfectly acceptable to accuse men of taking up too much space when sitting their legs apart when the seat next to them is empty. Google "Macho i Kollektivtraffiken" and shake your head. http://www.thelocal.se/39086/20120213/ http://www.thelocal.se/39086/20120213/