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Not to get into the debate about that other war, but there have almost certainly been many more Ukrainian civilians killed than the 11 000 formally confirmed de
by _djo_ 3y ago
Not to get into the debate about that other war, but there have almost certainly been many more Ukrainian civilians killed than the 11 000 formally confirmed deaths. That's just the number that can be properly verified, mostly in Ukrainian-held territory, and nobody is entirely certain how many have died in the Russian-occupied regions. Ukraine claims a much larger number have died, including more than 25 000 in Mariupol alone, for instance, but that can't be independently verified because it's still Russian-held.
- sir0010010 3y agoAlso Ukraine is a large country, civilians who were not drafted have mostly evacuated westward, and Poland and other countries have taken in other countless Ukrainian refugees. Meanwhile, Egypt has built barbed wire fences to prevent Palestinians from crossing the border and taking refuge there. And no other countries are presently accepting large numbers of Palestinian refugees at all.
- NomDePlum 3y agoThe barbed wire fences were equally built by Israel, are they not? Israel definitely controls that border. The current geopolitical outcome of Egypt accepting large numbers of Palestinian is that Israel does what it is doing now to Palestine, to Egypt at some point in the future.
- ineedaj0b 3y agoSadly, whoever takes the fleeing will likely have tremendous headaches in the future -to their own government- because of the people. Jordan took a large number in the past and they were terrible guests -attempting to overthrow the sovereign government- and got expelled. Black September left a very bad taste in nearly everyone’s mouth. Governments friendly towards Palestine are very much against physically taking them after those events
- NomDePlum 3y agoLikely didn't state it clearly enough in my original response, but that's my take too. Also, why would Egypt let in those that might provoke conflict and war with Israel? It's a fools mission, and one which Egypt was quite clear on in November/December it didn't want to embark on.
- skinkestek 3y agoI think the Egyptian fence has been built by Egyptians. That border is even more tightly controlled than the Israeli one AFAIK. Also, some useful conext: The Israeli border wasn't always like today. It has been progressively tightened step by step as nutjobs on the Arab side used whatever leeway they had to stage suicide attacks and smuggle in rocket parts.
- NomDePlum 3y agoThat response is just random propaganda. Can you provide some actual verifiable facts please, or at the very least, something based on your experience and insight?
- doktrin 3y agoEgypt is categorically not closing their border to Palestinians out of fear of an Israeli invasion.
- NomDePlum 3y agoEgypt currently definitely is, other than in very individual cases. From Google: ================= Egypt, however, has warned against an influx of refugees. It facilitates humanitarian aid into Gaza, but has said a mass exodus of Palestinians out of Gaza into Egypt is a red line, saying it fears Israel might never let the Palestinians go back. ===================== And Egypts real fear is that the Palestinians in Egypt will try to take back Palestine. Which wouldn't be very good for Egypt and engage them in a war with Israel.
- NomDePlum 3y agoThis is at least as true in Gaza too is it not? And over a much shorter time frame, with a significantly smaller population. The expectation is that there are at a minimum 15/20% dead under the bombed and decimated buildings. It could well be much, much higher, even double, or triple is not infeasible, given the large scale untargeted bombing, population dispersement and recognised IDF tactics that don't allow for groups to even consider searching and rescue operations in most cases but leave possible survivors buried under the rubble to die slowly and horribly. The current numbers are just not even close to verifiable given the circumstances, but are statistically clearly far worse in terms of civilians on all measures.
- skinkestek 3y agoOne significant difference is that Ukrainian authorities goes really far to evacuate civilians while Hamas goes really far to prevent civilians from evacuating. Earlier it has been said that based on previous reporting from previous incidents we can roughly trust the total numbers Hamas release evem if they are obviously wrong in that they claim every death to be an innocent civilian.
- NomDePlum 3y agoAddressing your first paragraph: All reporting I've seen has made it clear that any movement of population in Gaza has been subject to IDF and more broadly Israeli control. Every reported case I have seen appears to have been demanded by Israel, and the Palestinians have had no choice in it. I'm not sure we're you think Hamas are involved in this at all? It's all been forced displacements by Israel. And none of it has been willing. Where people have stayed and not moved often they have died, even with not the slightest involvement with Hamas. Addressing your second paragraph: Not quite sure if your point, but the numbers of deaths/casualties are broadly (my interpretation) seen as being as accurate as are available, and likely to be a significant undercount of the real number. I have to say the continual questioning of, what by a number of significant indicators, looks to be an undercount of the total number of people deliberately killed by Israel, in such a short period is appalling. It's highly likely that when we say 30,000 it's a wrong figure because it's 40,000 Israel deliberately killed. If it's wrong and it's only 20,000 Israel killed it doesn't matter. They should still stop the killing.