4 ms·

Ban after-work emails and calls? Tech bosses say you might as well ban startups

randycupertino 3y ago
More info: https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-disconnect/ https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-discon... https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729 https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729
__lbracket__ 3y ago
correct. if you want WLB and can land a job on corp, stay there.
earthWindFi 3y ago
This “ban” would only apply if both the employer and employee agree to the terms. Seems like a reasonable position. This issue can be discussed at the time of recruiting / hiring. Reasonable working hours and “off limit” hours can be agreed upon and should be respected.
proc0 3y ago
This is an ironic attempt at solving micromanagement. The politicians themselves are micromanaging society, trying to create all kinds of stupid laws that backfire over and over again. What's next, are they going to try and pass laws on how many meetings are allowed every week? How about a mandate limiting how much gluten products grocery stores should have? At this point I feel CA needs the Argentina treatment and get rid of most of the government because it's creating more problems then its solving.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  > pass laws on how many meetings are allowed every week I'm not going to advocate they should do this, but... I wouldn't be surprised if there were more successful startups under such a regulatory regime. Most meetings are for the benefit of people who either don't know how to or can't be bothered to compose async comms. I must not meet. Meetings are the work-killer. Meetings are the little-death that bring total distraction.
  - proc0 3y ago
    This is not about whether that is a problem or not, but rather whether the government should be the one fixing it. These type of issues are very murky and have a lot of subtle exceptions, there is no way they can create a law that would properly address the problems without creating new ones. Government is just not the right tool here. It's like using a flamethrower to toast some bread.
    - randomdata 3y ago
      Government is just a group of employees who work for the people. The people call on these employees to perform cleanup when outliers are compromising the wishes of the general population. What cleanup is necessary here? If everyone didn't want to read email after work they'd simply not do it, of course! What is happening, though, is that most people do not engage in after-work emails and calls, but a small group of people are going "above and beyond" in an effort be more competitive in the workplace. This has placed the general population in a situation where they are feeling increased pressure to also go "above and beyond" to remain competitive alongside. Something they do not want to do, something they find a need to correct. Let's face it, there are workers out there who have clear distain for other workers and left to their own devices will do all kinds of crazy things to ensure that they screw over the other worker sitting beside them out of a job. They will accept less pay, longer hours, unsafe environments, what have you just to fuck over the other guy. And if it means reading emails at all hours of the day to compromise their neighbour, they will do it! That's why we find labour laws of all sorts to quash such behaviour. This is just yet another instance. You are quite right that the people often don't consider the unintended consequences, but they also have a problem at hand and government is the tool they know. It may not be the right tool, but I also don't see suggestion of what the better tool is. You can't use tools you are unaware of. It is no surprise the people are not reaching for whatever this unknown better tool is.
      - aebtebeten 3y ago
        See also https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 There's no law against chewing rocks or sticking a fork in your ass until, for whatever unfathomable reason, a bunch of people start doing it in a manner that inconveniences everyone else.
- loa_in_ 3y ago
  The term micromanagement doesn't apply to government regulations. We already can't say publicly things with specific meanings (e.g. slander), can't possess tiny amounts of substances that are very specific (hallucinogenic), etc. The law of the land is in the upper bound of how extensive it needs to be.
082349872349872 3y ago
Ridiculous. I've done successful startups with no home calls at all, and all after-work emails read the next morning. (before* cell phones nearly every startup worked this way) If you want to be a services company, go ahead and have emergencies. If you want to be a product company, plan ahead and do deep work instead. Remember: urgent ≠ important * in fact, in the before times our home numbers were usually public information, available to all but used by few, because either (a) it was societally unacceptable to call without having a good reason, or (b) that call cost something, if only a dime. https://www.theonion.com/creepy-old-man-has-book-filled-with-the-home-phone-numb-1847802679 https://www.theonion.com/creepy-old-man-has-book-filled-with...

More info: https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-disconnect/ https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-discon... https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729 https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729

__lbracket__ 3y ago

correct. if you want WLB and can land a job on corp, stay there.

earthWindFi 3y ago

This “ban” would only apply if both the employer and employee agree to the terms. Seems like a reasonable position. This issue can be discussed at the time of recruiting / hiring. Reasonable working hours and “off limit” hours can be agreed upon and should be respected.

proc0 3y ago

This is an ironic attempt at solving micromanagement. The politicians themselves are micromanaging society, trying to create all kinds of stupid laws that backfire over and over again. What's next, are they going to try and pass laws on how many meetings are allowed every week? How about a mandate limiting how much gluten products grocery stores should have? At this point I feel CA needs the Argentina treatment and get rid of most of the government because it's creating more problems then its solving.

082349872349872 3y ago
> pass laws on how many meetings are allowed every week I'm not going to advocate they should do this, but... I wouldn't be surprised if there were more successful startups under such a regulatory regime. Most meetings are for the benefit of people who either don't know how to or can't be bothered to compose async comms. I must not meet. Meetings are the work-killer. Meetings are the little-death that bring total distraction.
- proc0 3y ago
  This is not about whether that is a problem or not, but rather whether the government should be the one fixing it. These type of issues are very murky and have a lot of subtle exceptions, there is no way they can create a law that would properly address the problems without creating new ones. Government is just not the right tool here. It's like using a flamethrower to toast some bread.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Government is just a group of employees who work for the people. The people call on these employees to perform cleanup when outliers are compromising the wishes of the general population. What cleanup is necessary here? If everyone didn't want to read email after work they'd simply not do it, of course! What is happening, though, is that most people do not engage in after-work emails and calls, but a small group of people are going "above and beyond" in an effort be more competitive in the workplace. This has placed the general population in a situation where they are feeling increased pressure to also go "above and beyond" to remain competitive alongside. Something they do not want to do, something they find a need to correct. Let's face it, there are workers out there who have clear distain for other workers and left to their own devices will do all kinds of crazy things to ensure that they screw over the other worker sitting beside them out of a job. They will accept less pay, longer hours, unsafe environments, what have you just to fuck over the other guy. And if it means reading emails at all hours of the day to compromise their neighbour, they will do it! That's why we find labour laws of all sorts to quash such behaviour. This is just yet another instance. You are quite right that the people often don't consider the unintended consequences, but they also have a problem at hand and government is the tool they know. It may not be the right tool, but I also don't see suggestion of what the better tool is. You can't use tools you are unaware of. It is no surprise the people are not reaching for whatever this unknown better tool is.
    - aebtebeten 3y ago
      See also https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/law-4 There's no law against chewing rocks or sticking a fork in your ass until, for whatever unfathomable reason, a bunch of people start doing it in a manner that inconveniences everyone else.
loa_in_ 3y ago
The term micromanagement doesn't apply to government regulations. We already can't say publicly things with specific meanings (e.g. slander), can't possess tiny amounts of substances that are very specific (hallucinogenic), etc. The law of the land is in the upper bound of how extensive it needs to be.

082349872349872 3y ago

Ridiculous. I've done successful startups with no home calls at all, and all after-work emails read the next morning. (before* cell phones nearly every startup worked this way) If you want to be a services company, go ahead and have emergencies. If you want to be a product company, plan ahead and do deep work instead. Remember: urgent ≠ important * in fact, in the before times our home numbers were usually public information, available to all but used by few, because either (a) it was societally unacceptable to call without having a good reason, or (b) that call cost something, if only a dime. https://www.theonion.com/creepy-old-man-has-book-filled-with-the-home-phone-numb-1847802679 https://www.theonion.com/creepy-old-man-has-book-filled-with...