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Trying my best to assume this comment in good faith... Low compared to what? For reference, in the recent war in Ukraine (post 2022), there have been approxim

Trying my best to assume this comment in good faith... Low compared to what? For reference, in the recent war in Ukraine (post 2022), there have been approximately 11,000 Ukrainian civilians killed and approximately 70,000 Ukrainian soldiers killed [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...

bawolff 3y ago
Usually you would compare it to other instances of urban combat. E.g. you might compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in cities, but you wouldn't compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in the middle of nowhere where no civilians were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio has some things to compare against. Part of the problem is it is often hard to identify who is a civilian, and often different battles will categorize them differently. For example, in the iraq war us was accused of significantly undercounting civilian casualties. All this makes it hard to do direct comparisons.
zmgsabst 3y ago
A similar anti-terrorist war featuring large amounts of urban conflict, eg Iraq (3:1) or Afghanistan (4:1.1) — since much of Ukraine is designated armies across open fields. Numbers from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
throwaway6734 3y ago
Ukraine's troops are uniformed and fighting along a front, not trying to blend in with civilians in an urban area
- NomDePlum 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - skinkestek 3y ago
    > What indication is there that there is any significant "blending in" of Hamas fighters? I think it is rather well documented. Go to r/combatfootage on reddit to see for yourself.
    - NomDePlum 3y ago
      Sorry, that is garbage. Reddit/YouTube/Twitter/TikTok are social media, not accurate reference points. Can you point me to something credible please?
      - dnate 3y ago
        Wikipedia has a good article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas
        NomDePlum 3y ago
        That article appears to state that the use of human shields by Hamas is not true and fabricated by Israel. It's not a term I've seen any real evidence for. If anything the opposite is true according to the linked and Guardian article. Israel is pursuing a policy of killing suspected members of Hamas in their family home/building when they are not engaged in warfare, using dumb bombs that guarantee there will be significant civilian casualties, likely in the low to high 10's and possibly higher.
        cess11 3y ago
        Of what use is a human shield if your enemy would just shoot the person in front of you? The IDF commonly uses palestinians as human shields though.
        davrosthedalek 3y ago
        To make the enemy kill civilians....
_djo_ 3y ago
Not to get into the debate about that other war, but there have almost certainly been many more Ukrainian civilians killed than the 11 000 formally confirmed deaths. That's just the number that can be properly verified, mostly in Ukrainian-held territory, and nobody is entirely certain how many have died in the Russian-occupied regions. Ukraine claims a much larger number have died, including more than 25 000 in Mariupol alone, for instance, but that can't be independently verified because it's still Russian-held.
- sir0010010 3y ago
  Also Ukraine is a large country, civilians who were not drafted have mostly evacuated westward, and Poland and other countries have taken in other countless Ukrainian refugees. Meanwhile, Egypt has built barbed wire fences to prevent Palestinians from crossing the border and taking refuge there. And no other countries are presently accepting large numbers of Palestinian refugees at all.
  - NomDePlum 3y ago
    The barbed wire fences were equally built by Israel, are they not? Israel definitely controls that border. The current geopolitical outcome of Egypt accepting large numbers of Palestinian is that Israel does what it is doing now to Palestine, to Egypt at some point in the future.
    - ineedaj0b 3y ago
      Sadly, whoever takes the fleeing will likely have tremendous headaches in the future -to their own government- because of the people. Jordan took a large number in the past and they were terrible guests -attempting to overthrow the sovereign government- and got expelled. Black September left a very bad taste in nearly everyone’s mouth. Governments friendly towards Palestine are very much against physically taking them after those events
      - NomDePlum 3y ago
        Likely didn't state it clearly enough in my original response, but that's my take too. Also, why would Egypt let in those that might provoke conflict and war with Israel? It's a fools mission, and one which Egypt was quite clear on in November/December it didn't want to embark on.

bawolff 3y ago

Usually you would compare it to other instances of urban combat. E.g. you might compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in cities, but you wouldn't compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in the middle of nowhere where no civilians were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio has some things to compare against. Part of the problem is it is often hard to identify who is a civilian, and often different battles will categorize them differently. For example, in the iraq war us was accused of significantly undercounting civilian casualties. All this makes it hard to do direct comparisons.

zmgsabst 3y ago

A similar anti-terrorist war featuring large amounts of urban conflict, eg Iraq (3:1) or Afghanistan (4:1.1) — since much of Ukraine is designated armies across open fields. Numbers from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

throwaway6734 3y ago

Ukraine's troops are uniformed and fighting along a front, not trying to blend in with civilians in an urban area

NomDePlum 3y ago
[flagged]
- skinkestek 3y ago
  > What indication is there that there is any significant "blending in" of Hamas fighters? I think it is rather well documented. Go to r/combatfootage on reddit to see for yourself.
  - NomDePlum 3y ago
    Sorry, that is garbage. Reddit/YouTube/Twitter/TikTok are social media, not accurate reference points. Can you point me to something credible please?
    - dnate 3y ago
      Wikipedia has a good article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas
      - NomDePlum 3y ago
        That article appears to state that the use of human shields by Hamas is not true and fabricated by Israel. It's not a term I've seen any real evidence for. If anything the opposite is true according to the linked and Guardian article. Israel is pursuing a policy of killing suspected members of Hamas in their family home/building when they are not engaged in warfare, using dumb bombs that guarantee there will be significant civilian casualties, likely in the low to high 10's and possibly higher.
      - cess11 3y ago
        Of what use is a human shield if your enemy would just shoot the person in front of you? The IDF commonly uses palestinians as human shields though.
        davrosthedalek 3y ago
        To make the enemy kill civilians....

_djo_ 3y ago

Not to get into the debate about that other war, but there have almost certainly been many more Ukrainian civilians killed than the 11 000 formally confirmed deaths. That's just the number that can be properly verified, mostly in Ukrainian-held territory, and nobody is entirely certain how many have died in the Russian-occupied regions. Ukraine claims a much larger number have died, including more than 25 000 in Mariupol alone, for instance, but that can't be independently verified because it's still Russian-held.

sir0010010 3y ago
Also Ukraine is a large country, civilians who were not drafted have mostly evacuated westward, and Poland and other countries have taken in other countless Ukrainian refugees. Meanwhile, Egypt has built barbed wire fences to prevent Palestinians from crossing the border and taking refuge there. And no other countries are presently accepting large numbers of Palestinian refugees at all.
- NomDePlum 3y ago
  The barbed wire fences were equally built by Israel, are they not? Israel definitely controls that border. The current geopolitical outcome of Egypt accepting large numbers of Palestinian is that Israel does what it is doing now to Palestine, to Egypt at some point in the future.
  - ineedaj0b 3y ago
    Sadly, whoever takes the fleeing will likely have tremendous headaches in the future -to their own government- because of the people. Jordan took a large number in the past and they were terrible guests -attempting to overthrow the sovereign government- and got expelled. Black September left a very bad taste in nearly everyone’s mouth. Governments friendly towards Palestine are very much against physically taking them after those events
    - NomDePlum 3y ago
      Likely didn't state it clearly enough in my original response, but that's my take too. Also, why would Egypt let in those that might provoke conflict and war with Israel? It's a fools mission, and one which Egypt was quite clear on in November/December it didn't want to embark on.