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That's not true. The UN themselves state that their numbers for Ukraine are likely severely undercounting the total casualties simply because they don't have a

That's not true. The UN themselves state that their numbers for Ukraine are likely severely undercounting the total casualties simply because they don't have any insight into what is going on in occupied territory. They do not give "estimates" for Ukraine, the numbers are what they have been able to confirm. So for you to call that very specific number an "estimate" is incorrect - which should probably have been self-evident. >> The U.N. human rights mission in Ukraine, which has dozens of monitors in the country, said it expects the real toll to be "significantly higher" than the official tally since corroboration work is ongoing. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukr... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/more-than-8000-civilians-killed-since-russia-invaded-ukraine-un-2023-02-21/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/more-than-8000-civilian... There are more than 10,000 fresh graves in the city of Mariupol alone and many of them appear to contain multiple bodies - which was the case in other graves uncovered in places like Kherson and Lyman. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-methodology-f74b28016b8dea4b82811655f14931f2 https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariup... The actual civilian death toll is almost certainly in the tens of thousands, not a singular ten thousand. Also consider the death toll caused by the withholding of medical assistance to those who refuse to take Russian citizenship, and the flooding caused by the destruction of the Nova Khakovka dam.

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
Other sources also have the number at around 10k fatalities. For e.g., the Harvard Kennedy School: https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/russia-ukraine-war-report-card-jan-2-2024 https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/russia-ukraine-war-report... Perhaps the number is higher. What's your best estimate for the number of civilian casualties in Ukraine? How about military casualties on both sides? And, quibbling over numbers aside, surely you can see that the nature of the war in Gaza and the war in Ukraine are very different. In Gaza, civilians are taking the brunt of the fighting. Ukraine, in contrast, is hell for soldiers, but civilians and aid workers are generally moved away from the front, and they're more rarely treated with the wanton disregard and disdain that Gazans suffer. To all appearances, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, fought by and large by the accepted rules of war. In contrast, I don't think that Israel is fighting a war; they're marauding and taking shots at a densely populated civilian enclave that refuses to surrender to them unconditionally.
- dralley 3y ago
  That's not a source, it's a link back to the very same UN figures I just explained the problem with. Literally if you follow the citation on that page for that section, it goes straight back to the UN report, which explains how each casualty was corroborated (NOT estimated. independently verified.) >And, quibbling over numbers aside, surely you can see that the nature of the war in Gaza and the war in Ukraine are very different. In Gaza, civilians are taking the brunt of the fighting. I do not see the difference between Gaza and Mariupol, except that the population of Mariupol is older and the temperatures drop below freezing for months of the year. It was carpet bombed, residential areas were shelled, there were reports of civilians needing to drink water from puddles, incidents of torture and murder, practically the entire city was destroyed. >To all appearances, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, fought by and large by the accepted rules of war. In contrast, I don't think that Israel is fighting a war; they're marauding and taking shots at a densely populated civilian enclave that refuses to surrender to them unconditionally. With all due respect I do not see how you can possibly think this unless you've been ignoring much of what has been happening in Ukraine. One example of many: https://www.wsj.com/video/series/in-depth-features/images-show-russia-used-cluster-bombs-hit-civilian-targets-in-mariupol/24923B17-696B-41D1-975E-D14BAF095056 https://www.wsj.com/video/series/in-depth-features/images-sh... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/te9kvd/kharkiv_is_being_pounded_mercilessly_by_cluster/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/te9kvd/khark... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t5s44r/cctv_footage_of_shelling_on_a_residential_area_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t5s44r/cctv_... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t4rfgy/russian_heavy_bombing_in_the_city_of_j%C3%A1rkov/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t4rfgy/russi... Hospital hit with a 1500kg bomb: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/170fues/russians_are_shelling_a_hospital_in_beryslav/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/170fues/russ... Russians using a Ukrainian POW as a human shield during an attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1azri7n/russian_vdv_storming_an_afu_position_one_russian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1azri7n/russ... Russians using 3 Ukrainian POWs as human shields during an attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/18hnvkx/claimed_russian_soldiers_use_ukainian_pows_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/18hnvkx/clai... You don't want me to share the video of Russians executing 9 Ukrainian POWs with their hands behind their backs, the video of Russians castrating a Ukrainian POW and then executing him, or the video of Russians decapitating a Ukrainian POW slowly with a knife. And Bucha, and the Nova Khahovka dam, and the torture chambers, and the air campaign designed in the Russians own words to freeze Ukrainians over the winter, and the mass graves in Lyman where raped and murdered women and tortured Ukrainian men were discovered. And the Kramatorsk railway station attack. And the Kremenchuk shopping mall attack. Literally yesterday the Russians hit an elementary school in Dnipro with ballistic missiles, the only reason it wasn't a mass casualty event was that they had 5 minutes warning to evacuate to bomb shelters. This is literally just what I can remember off the top of my head.

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago

Other sources also have the number at around 10k fatalities. For e.g., the Harvard Kennedy School: https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/russia-ukraine-war-report-card-jan-2-2024 https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/russia-ukraine-war-report... Perhaps the number is higher. What's your best estimate for the number of civilian casualties in Ukraine? How about military casualties on both sides? And, quibbling over numbers aside, surely you can see that the nature of the war in Gaza and the war in Ukraine are very different. In Gaza, civilians are taking the brunt of the fighting. Ukraine, in contrast, is hell for soldiers, but civilians and aid workers are generally moved away from the front, and they're more rarely treated with the wanton disregard and disdain that Gazans suffer. To all appearances, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, fought by and large by the accepted rules of war. In contrast, I don't think that Israel is fighting a war; they're marauding and taking shots at a densely populated civilian enclave that refuses to surrender to them unconditionally.

dralley 3y ago
That's not a source, it's a link back to the very same UN figures I just explained the problem with. Literally if you follow the citation on that page for that section, it goes straight back to the UN report, which explains how each casualty was corroborated (NOT estimated. independently verified.) >And, quibbling over numbers aside, surely you can see that the nature of the war in Gaza and the war in Ukraine are very different. In Gaza, civilians are taking the brunt of the fighting. I do not see the difference between Gaza and Mariupol, except that the population of Mariupol is older and the temperatures drop below freezing for months of the year. It was carpet bombed, residential areas were shelled, there were reports of civilians needing to drink water from puddles, incidents of torture and murder, practically the entire city was destroyed. >To all appearances, what's happening in Ukraine is a war, fought by and large by the accepted rules of war. In contrast, I don't think that Israel is fighting a war; they're marauding and taking shots at a densely populated civilian enclave that refuses to surrender to them unconditionally. With all due respect I do not see how you can possibly think this unless you've been ignoring much of what has been happening in Ukraine. One example of many: https://www.wsj.com/video/series/in-depth-features/images-show-russia-used-cluster-bombs-hit-civilian-targets-in-mariupol/24923B17-696B-41D1-975E-D14BAF095056 https://www.wsj.com/video/series/in-depth-features/images-sh... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/te9kvd/kharkiv_is_being_pounded_mercilessly_by_cluster/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/te9kvd/khark... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t5s44r/cctv_footage_of_shelling_on_a_residential_area_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t5s44r/cctv_... Another: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t4rfgy/russian_heavy_bombing_in_the_city_of_j%C3%A1rkov/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t4rfgy/russi... Hospital hit with a 1500kg bomb: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/170fues/russians_are_shelling_a_hospital_in_beryslav/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/170fues/russ... Russians using a Ukrainian POW as a human shield during an attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1azri7n/russian_vdv_storming_an_afu_position_one_russian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1azri7n/russ... Russians using 3 Ukrainian POWs as human shields during an attack: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/18hnvkx/claimed_russian_soldiers_use_ukainian_pows_as/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/18hnvkx/clai... You don't want me to share the video of Russians executing 9 Ukrainian POWs with their hands behind their backs, the video of Russians castrating a Ukrainian POW and then executing him, or the video of Russians decapitating a Ukrainian POW slowly with a knife. And Bucha, and the Nova Khahovka dam, and the torture chambers, and the air campaign designed in the Russians own words to freeze Ukrainians over the winter, and the mass graves in Lyman where raped and murdered women and tortured Ukrainian men were discovered. And the Kramatorsk railway station attack. And the Kremenchuk shopping mall attack. Literally yesterday the Russians hit an elementary school in Dnipro with ballistic missiles, the only reason it wasn't a mass casualty event was that they had 5 minutes warning to evacuate to bomb shelters. This is literally just what I can remember off the top of my head.