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> I think that if the article were about linking "tor users" with their secret owners then we would see the opposite stance being taken. Companies aren't peopl

> I think that if the article were about linking "tor users" with their secret owners then we would see the opposite stance being taken. Companies aren't people.

paulddraper 3y ago
But their owners are. Company = Tor client Owner = Operator
- wnevets 3y ago
  but their owners don't share the same liability as the company. The entire reason the concept of companies exist is to create a separate entity that isn't a person. To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison?
  - logifail 3y ago
    > To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison? The governing body of a corporation isn't its shareholders. If you're asking what happens if a company breaks the law, then look up VW Dieselgate. Yes, some executives were prosecuted; yes, some of them went to jail. I'm not sure what (company) shareholders have to do with this.
    - wnevets 3y ago
      > I'm not sure what (company) shareholders have to do with this. The comment I replied to said this in reply to my original comment. > But their owners are. Shareholders are the owners, not executives.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison? Forfeiting dividends+penalty that were the product of illegal or negligent corporate practices seems like a reasonable start. Stated more broadly: As far as investing in unethical and anti-consumer practices is a winner now - society would be better served if the opposite were true.
logifail 3y ago
> Companies aren't people. Umm, in many jurisdictions they are [almost]: "In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. Granting non-human entities personhood is a Western concept applied to corporations." https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-... https://www.purduegloballawschool.edu/blog/news/corporate-personhood https://www.purduegloballawschool.edu/blog/news/corporate-pe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood
- wnevets 3y ago
  > a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. A person has rights other than to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > A person has rights other than to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued Indeed. In the context of this thread, how are those other rights relevant?
    - wnevets 3y ago
      > In the context of this thread, how are those other rights relevant? That a company isn't a person. We know this because a person has rights a company doesn't.
      - logifail 3y ago
        > That a company isn't a person. We know this because a person has rights a company doesn't It would appear that this view is not widespread: "In law, a legal person is any person or 'thing' (less ambiguously, any legal entity) that can do the things a human person is usually able to do in law – such as enter into contracts, sue and be sued, own property, and so on. The reason for the term "legal person" is that some legal persons are not people: companies and corporations are "persons" legally speaking (they can legally do most of the things an ordinary person can do), but they are not people in a literal sense (human beings)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person
diego_sandoval 3y ago
They aren't people in the same way that families aren't people, countries aren't people and football clubs aren't people.

> I think that if the article were about linking "tor users" with their secret owners then we would see the opposite stance being taken. Companies aren't people.

paulddraper 3y ago

But their owners are. Company = Tor client Owner = Operator

wnevets 3y ago
but their owners don't share the same liability as the company. The entire reason the concept of companies exist is to create a separate entity that isn't a person. To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison?
- logifail 3y ago
  > To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison? The governing body of a corporation isn't its shareholders. If you're asking what happens if a company breaks the law, then look up VW Dieselgate. Yes, some executives were prosecuted; yes, some of them went to jail. I'm not sure what (company) shareholders have to do with this.
  - wnevets 3y ago
    > I'm not sure what (company) shareholders have to do with this. The comment I replied to said this in reply to my original comment. > But their owners are. Shareholders are the owners, not executives.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > To put it another way when a company breaks the law should its shareholders (aka owners) go to prison? Forfeiting dividends+penalty that were the product of illegal or negligent corporate practices seems like a reasonable start. Stated more broadly: As far as investing in unethical and anti-consumer practices is a winner now - society would be better served if the opposite were true.

logifail 3y ago

> Companies aren't people. Umm, in many jurisdictions they are [almost]: "In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. Granting non-human entities personhood is a Western concept applied to corporations." https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-become-people-excavating-the-legal-evolution https://www.npr.org/2014/07/28/335288388/when-did-companies-... https://www.purduegloballawschool.edu/blog/news/corporate-personhood https://www.purduegloballawschool.edu/blog/news/corporate-pe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

wnevets 3y ago
> a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. A person has rights other than to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued.
- logifail 3y ago
  > A person has rights other than to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued Indeed. In the context of this thread, how are those other rights relevant?
  - wnevets 3y ago
    > In the context of this thread, how are those other rights relevant? That a company isn't a person. We know this because a person has rights a company doesn't.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > That a company isn't a person. We know this because a person has rights a company doesn't It would appear that this view is not widespread: "In law, a legal person is any person or 'thing' (less ambiguously, any legal entity) that can do the things a human person is usually able to do in law – such as enter into contracts, sue and be sued, own property, and so on. The reason for the term "legal person" is that some legal persons are not people: companies and corporations are "persons" legally speaking (they can legally do most of the things an ordinary person can do), but they are not people in a literal sense (human beings)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_person

diego_sandoval 3y ago

They aren't people in the same way that families aren't people, countries aren't people and football clubs aren't people.