4 ms·

> $8-20k range, which is Eastern European level Are you talking about software and tech in general? Because that's several times lower than the average. In ev

> $8-20k range, which is Eastern European level Are you talking about software and tech in general? Because that's several times lower than the average. In every single East European country in the EU, the average ~~monthly~~ [edit: yearly] wage (I'm talking about the whole population) is at least 18-20k and you certainly can't find any actual developers for anything even close to that.

locusofself 3y ago
Are you saying that average tech pay in Eastern Europe is up to 240k euros per year? that sounds about 4x too high.
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  No, sorry that was a typo, of course it's yearly (the $20k is not for tech pay but average wage for the entire population, tech would be 1.5-3x more)
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    Maybe in Poland or Czechia, but in Romania or Bulgaria those are far from average.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Even in Poland the median household disposable income (the metric I am using for China) comes out to around $600/mo [0] and is comparable to Thailand. Polish boosterism is almost as annoying as Indian boosterism tbh - both seem to come from a place of insecurity and heavily play up some positives while ignoring the negatives. If you listen to Polish or Indian nationalists, you'd think Poland or India are major superpowers already and have been for decades. Is this a side effect of PiS's hypernationalist media in the 2010s? Or is this some weird alt-right Catholic White Nationalism fetish? [0] - https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaultaktualnosci/5486/3/22/1/sytuacja_gospodarstw_domowych_w_2022_r._w_swietle_wynikow_badania_budzetow_gospodarstw_domowych.docx https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaulta...
      - Wytwwww 3y ago
        > both seem to come from a place of insecurity and heavily play up some positives while ignoring the negatives > Or is this some weird alt-right Catholic White Nationalism fetish? I see a lot of projection going on here. No, you were not talking about average disposable income you were talking about salaries for workers in tech. This is what you wrote: > if you're working for a mass recruiter your mid-career salary will top off around the $8-20k range, which is Eastern European level, but lower than France and Germany (where it's around the $40-60k range). The average salary for all employes in all sector in Poland is > $24k. Are you implying that you can hire tech workers or even software engineers for considerably less than the national average? Seems highly far fetched. Was this an unintentional mistake or are you doing it on purpose. Considering the totally uncalled for diatribe about Polish(I'm neither Polish nor have anything to do with it for that matter) nationalism unfortunately it's probably the second?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        > about average disposable income You made it about average incomes when you said your average Eastern European - not Eastern European techie - earns around $18k-20k a year when every government from Poland to Romania to Bulgaria has provided statistics proving otherwise.
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        No, I was talking about average salaries because we were comparing salaries. > government from Poland to Romania to Bulgaria has provided statistics proving otherwise Can you please stop being obtuse? That's not particularly entertaining at this point.. > earns around $18k-20k a year The average salary in Poland AFTER TAX is around $17k, GROSS is almost $24k. I'm not sure why are you fixated about this. That average income is tangential to the whole discussion fact is you certainly can't find any software developers/etc. for $8k primarily because that's actually below any minimum wage in any EU country besides Bulgaria. You would really struggle to hire anyone even remotely decent for $20k as well.
alephnerd 3y ago
> single East European country in the EU, the average ~~monthly~~ [edit: yearly] wage (I'm talking about the whole population) is at least 18-20k Median disposable household income in Poland is around $600/mo [0], only $200/mo more than in China Median monthly household income in Romania is around $545/mo [1], so disposable is probably comparable to China. Median monthly household income in Bulgaria is around $600-700/mo [2], so disposable is probably comparable to Poland. The only Eastern European country that broke the $1k/mo barrier was Estonia with around $1k/mo [3]. These are all government statistics from the Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Estonian government. Eastern Europe has developed significantly, but still lags behind Western Europe massively. Based on the hiring packages we've given to developers in Warsaw, the salaries were around $30-40k, but we could have paid much less if we hired someone from EPAM. [0] - https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaultaktualnosci/5486/3/22/1/sytuacja_gospodarstw_domowych_w_2022_r._w_swietle_wynikow_badania_budzetow_gospodarstw_domowych.docx https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaulta... [1] - https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/abf_2022r.pdf https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/a... [2] - https://www.mlsp.government.bg/obshchiyat-dokhod-na-domakinstvata-narastva-s-18-na-godishna-baza https://www.mlsp.government.bg/obshchiyat-dokhod-na-domakins... [3] - https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/tooelu/sissetulek https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/tooelu/...
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Why are you comparing some "top" company engineers to median wage? That makes no sense.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I'm taking umbrage to the fact that OP said the "average ~~monthly~~ [edit: yearly] wage (I'm talking about the whole population) is at least 18-20k" when it is obviously bull.
    - Wytwwww 3y ago
      It's not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... You don't just seem to know that disposable income and average wage/salary is not the same thing..

locusofself 3y ago

Are you saying that average tech pay in Eastern Europe is up to 240k euros per year? that sounds about 4x too high.

Wytwwww 3y ago
No, sorry that was a typo, of course it's yearly (the $20k is not for tech pay but average wage for the entire population, tech would be 1.5-3x more)
- Rinzler89 3y ago
  Maybe in Poland or Czechia, but in Romania or Bulgaria those are far from average.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Even in Poland the median household disposable income (the metric I am using for China) comes out to around $600/mo [0] and is comparable to Thailand. Polish boosterism is almost as annoying as Indian boosterism tbh - both seem to come from a place of insecurity and heavily play up some positives while ignoring the negatives. If you listen to Polish or Indian nationalists, you'd think Poland or India are major superpowers already and have been for decades. Is this a side effect of PiS's hypernationalist media in the 2010s? Or is this some weird alt-right Catholic White Nationalism fetish? [0] - https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaultaktualnosci/5486/3/22/1/sytuacja_gospodarstw_domowych_w_2022_r._w_swietle_wynikow_badania_budzetow_gospodarstw_domowych.docx https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaulta...
    - Wytwwww 3y ago
      > both seem to come from a place of insecurity and heavily play up some positives while ignoring the negatives > Or is this some weird alt-right Catholic White Nationalism fetish? I see a lot of projection going on here. No, you were not talking about average disposable income you were talking about salaries for workers in tech. This is what you wrote: > if you're working for a mass recruiter your mid-career salary will top off around the $8-20k range, which is Eastern European level, but lower than France and Germany (where it's around the $40-60k range). The average salary for all employes in all sector in Poland is > $24k. Are you implying that you can hire tech workers or even software engineers for considerably less than the national average? Seems highly far fetched. Was this an unintentional mistake or are you doing it on purpose. Considering the totally uncalled for diatribe about Polish(I'm neither Polish nor have anything to do with it for that matter) nationalism unfortunately it's probably the second?
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        > about average disposable income You made it about average incomes when you said your average Eastern European - not Eastern European techie - earns around $18k-20k a year when every government from Poland to Romania to Bulgaria has provided statistics proving otherwise.
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        No, I was talking about average salaries because we were comparing salaries. > government from Poland to Romania to Bulgaria has provided statistics proving otherwise Can you please stop being obtuse? That's not particularly entertaining at this point.. > earns around $18k-20k a year The average salary in Poland AFTER TAX is around $17k, GROSS is almost $24k. I'm not sure why are you fixated about this. That average income is tangential to the whole discussion fact is you certainly can't find any software developers/etc. for $8k primarily because that's actually below any minimum wage in any EU country besides Bulgaria. You would really struggle to hire anyone even remotely decent for $20k as well.

alephnerd 3y ago

> single East European country in the EU, the average ~~monthly~~ [edit: yearly] wage (I'm talking about the whole population) is at least 18-20k Median disposable household income in Poland is around $600/mo [0], only $200/mo more than in China Median monthly household income in Romania is around $545/mo [1], so disposable is probably comparable to China. Median monthly household income in Bulgaria is around $600-700/mo [2], so disposable is probably comparable to Poland. The only Eastern European country that broke the $1k/mo barrier was Estonia with around $1k/mo [3]. These are all government statistics from the Polish, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Estonian government. Eastern Europe has developed significantly, but still lags behind Western Europe massively. Based on the hiring packages we've given to developers in Warsaw, the salaries were around $30-40k, but we could have paid much less if we hired someone from EPAM. [0] - https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaultaktualnosci/5486/3/22/1/sytuacja_gospodarstw_domowych_w_2022_r._w_swietle_wynikow_badania_budzetow_gospodarstw_domowych.docx https://stat.gov.pl/files/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaulta... [1] - https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/abf_2022r.pdf https://insse.ro/cms/sites/default/files/com_presa/com_pdf/a... [2] - https://www.mlsp.government.bg/obshchiyat-dokhod-na-domakinstvata-narastva-s-18-na-godishna-baza https://www.mlsp.government.bg/obshchiyat-dokhod-na-domakins... [3] - https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/tooelu/sissetulek https://www.stat.ee/et/avasta-statistikat/valdkonnad/tooelu/...

KptMarchewa 3y ago
Why are you comparing some "top" company engineers to median wage? That makes no sense.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  I'm taking umbrage to the fact that OP said the "average ~~monthly~~ [edit: yearly] wage (I'm talking about the whole population) is at least 18-20k" when it is obviously bull.
  - Wytwwww 3y ago
    It's not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... You don't just seem to know that disposable income and average wage/salary is not the same thing..