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>If you pick up a gun and start shooting the other side, you are not a civilian. You're not a civilian while you're holding the gun, but you are once you stop

>If you pick up a gun and start shooting the other side, you are not a civilian. You're not a civilian while you're holding the gun, but you are once you stop shooting again: you lose your protection as a civilian during your period of direct participation. Should have been more clear on that. It's probably also worth saying that -- while there's a degree of subtlety and complexity when considering the legal and moral position of Israel's armed forces -- there's very little to debate when it comes to actions like the Re'im music festival attack. That kind of action is obviously illegal and morally repugnant.

whythre 3y ago
Dropping the gun is not sufficient to claim civilian status. Military bases are full of soldiers that may not be armed, or even awake. That lack of a gun does not suddenly grant them civilian status.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  That's not what I said: I said that civilians who engage in fighting lose protection as civilians. Members of armed forces, whether currently armed or not, are legitimate targets (with certain exceptions; like the wounded, those who have surrendered etc).
bluish29 3y ago
> while there's a degree of subtlety and complexity when considering the legal and moral position of Israel's armed forces No, there is no such complexity. There are very obviously undebatable incidents of war crimes by the IDF. Like this footage from a drone who deliberately killed civilians in plain sight and trying to cover the bodies[1] and the IDF targeting aid workers in a location they knew about [2]. Also, there are widespread videos by IDF soldiers committing atrocities and crimes in Gaza and posting it on social media. That is hardly self-defense. This is obvious war crimes against civilians. Not to mention the mass starvation and carpet bombing of civilians. There is very little to debate, and denying them is immoral. You are just using a very old tactic of trying to minimize IDF crimes by claiming their position is complex. Remember the old say "Middle East is complex mess, let's just ignore what is happening there" [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-dr... [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/central-world-kitchen-aid-workers-killed-airstrike-gaza/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/central-world-kitchen-aid-worke...
- bawolff 3y ago
  The aid worker one is probably the most undebatable one, but it also just happened. How to judge it depends on what happens next. Part of the assumption of war is that it involves people, some of whom are going to be bad - The expectation isn't that a country is perfect, but that it takes steps to prevent war crimes and punish the perpetrators when it happens. We don't know yet whether or not Israel will charge the people involved in the aid worker bombing. Some of the other things you mention have a lot of grey area, because whether or not they are a war crime don't necessarily depend solely on what happened, but on what Israel's intent was and what they knew at various points in time. Which is information that's hard to know from our vantage point. Some of them could be, but there is also potential that they might not be. Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
  - bluish29 3y ago
    > We don't know yet whether or not Israel will charge the people involved in the aid worker bombing In 2021, Israeli forces killed an American-Palestinian journalist on duty in plain sight [1] I will quote that from Wikipedia "Israel denied responsibility and blamed Palestinian militants. However, it gradually changed its narrative until admitted she was "accidentally" killed by Israeli fire, but refused to undertake a criminal investigation" and "On September 5, the IDF released the results of its own investigation, finding that there was a "high possibility" that Abu Akleh was "accidentally hit" by army fire, but that it would not begin a criminal investigation" Another example In 1996, IDF fired shells on UN compound near a village called Qana and caused a civilian massacre. The UN investigated, and Israel refused the results and did not punish anyone [2]. Let's give them a benefit of the doubt, maybe they will just learn and avoid doing it again. Fear not, in 2016 they give us the second Qana massacre [3] without anyone getting punished. And there are maybe hundred of these events which can establish that Israel doesn't care and IDF don't get punished. I also refuse the logic that Israel should investigate war crimes by its army. That is absurd, like waiting for Russia to investigate and take their words for Bucha massacre. IDF have very well documented war crimes in the past and IDF is the occupying forces of Palestine and is mass starving 2.3m to death in Gaza right now. Believing that they will carry honest investigation and punish their soldiers is laughable. And let's not forget to add the IDF lie, and they are blatant Liars. We still remember them claiming week days in Arabic are names of Hamas operatives [4]. Why do you expect us to believe them? Of course, the Israeli officials and cabinet members calling for violence, crimes against Palestinians are well known to everyone now (Feel free to ask me for examples). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike [4] https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-...

whythre 3y ago

Dropping the gun is not sufficient to claim civilian status. Military bases are full of soldiers that may not be armed, or even awake. That lack of a gun does not suddenly grant them civilian status.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
That's not what I said: I said that civilians who engage in fighting lose protection as civilians. Members of armed forces, whether currently armed or not, are legitimate targets (with certain exceptions; like the wounded, those who have surrendered etc).

bluish29 3y ago

> while there's a degree of subtlety and complexity when considering the legal and moral position of Israel's armed forces No, there is no such complexity. There are very obviously undebatable incidents of war crimes by the IDF. Like this footage from a drone who deliberately killed civilians in plain sight and trying to cover the bodies[1] and the IDF targeting aid workers in a location they knew about [2]. Also, there are widespread videos by IDF soldiers committing atrocities and crimes in Gaza and posting it on social media. That is hardly self-defense. This is obvious war crimes against civilians. Not to mention the mass starvation and carpet bombing of civilians. There is very little to debate, and denying them is immoral. You are just using a very old tactic of trying to minimize IDF crimes by claiming their position is complex. Remember the old say "Middle East is complex mess, let's just ignore what is happening there" [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-dr... [2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/central-world-kitchen-aid-workers-killed-airstrike-gaza/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/central-world-kitchen-aid-worke...

bawolff 3y ago
The aid worker one is probably the most undebatable one, but it also just happened. How to judge it depends on what happens next. Part of the assumption of war is that it involves people, some of whom are going to be bad - The expectation isn't that a country is perfect, but that it takes steps to prevent war crimes and punish the perpetrators when it happens. We don't know yet whether or not Israel will charge the people involved in the aid worker bombing. Some of the other things you mention have a lot of grey area, because whether or not they are a war crime don't necessarily depend solely on what happened, but on what Israel's intent was and what they knew at various points in time. Which is information that's hard to know from our vantage point. Some of them could be, but there is also potential that they might not be. Its not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
- bluish29 3y ago
  > We don't know yet whether or not Israel will charge the people involved in the aid worker bombing In 2021, Israeli forces killed an American-Palestinian journalist on duty in plain sight [1] I will quote that from Wikipedia "Israel denied responsibility and blamed Palestinian militants. However, it gradually changed its narrative until admitted she was "accidentally" killed by Israeli fire, but refused to undertake a criminal investigation" and "On September 5, the IDF released the results of its own investigation, finding that there was a "high possibility" that Abu Akleh was "accidentally hit" by army fire, but that it would not begin a criminal investigation" Another example In 1996, IDF fired shells on UN compound near a village called Qana and caused a civilian massacre. The UN investigated, and Israel refused the results and did not punish anyone [2]. Let's give them a benefit of the doubt, maybe they will just learn and avoid doing it again. Fear not, in 2016 they give us the second Qana massacre [3] without anyone getting punished. And there are maybe hundred of these events which can establish that Israel doesn't care and IDF don't get punished. I also refuse the logic that Israel should investigate war crimes by its army. That is absurd, like waiting for Russia to investigate and take their words for Bucha massacre. IDF have very well documented war crimes in the past and IDF is the occupying forces of Palestine and is mass starving 2.3m to death in Gaza right now. Believing that they will carry honest investigation and punish their soldiers is laughable. And let's not forget to add the IDF lie, and they are blatant Liars. We still remember them claiming week days in Arabic are names of Hamas operatives [4]. Why do you expect us to believe them? Of course, the Israeli officials and cabinet members calling for violence, crimes against Palestinians are well known to everyone now (Feel free to ask me for examples). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shireen_Abu_Akleh [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Qana_airstrike [4] https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-idf-claims-to-find-list-of-hamas-names-but-it-s-the-days-of-the-week-in-arabic https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-...