45 ms·

> Everyone else is a civilian that can only be directly targeted when and for as long as they directly participate in hostilities, such as by taking up arms, p

• skinkestek 3y ago
  In Norway it is rather the other way: We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist. But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.
  • notsafetocomm 3y ago
    Maybe it's because the overwhelming majority of the people being killed are actually just regular people?
    • zmgsabst 3y ago
      That’s always the case. At 2:1 civilians to combatants, this is an unusually low civilian death count.
      • lukan 3y ago
        Well, depends how exactly you classify people as "combatant". https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-ma...
      • Gabriel54 3y ago
        Trying my best to assume this comment in good faith... Low compared to what? For reference, in the recent war in Ukraine (post 2022), there have been approximately 11,000 Ukrainian civilians killed and approximately 70,000 Ukrainian soldiers killed [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...
        • bawolff 3y ago
          Usually you would compare it to other instances of urban combat. E.g. you might compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in cities, but you wouldn't compare it to ukrainian battles that took place in the middle of nowhere where no civilians were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio has some things to compare against. Part of the problem is it is often hard to identify who is a civilian, and often different battles will categorize them differently. For example, in the iraq war us was accused of significantly undercounting civilian casualties. All this makes it hard to do direct comparisons.
        • zmgsabst 3y ago
          A similar anti-terrorist war featuring large amounts of urban conflict, eg Iraq (3:1) or Afghanistan (4:1.1) — since much of Ukraine is designated armies across open fields. Numbers from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
        • throwaway6734 3y ago
          Ukraine's troops are uniformed and fighting along a front, not trying to blend in with civilians in an urban area
          • NomDePlum 3y ago
            [flagged]
            • skinkestek 3y ago
      • tmnvix 3y ago
        This could only be possible if you are assuming all males killed are Hamas militants. In other words, absurd.
      • oa335 3y ago
        Hamas’s Oct 7th attack also had a 2:1 civilian to soldier death ratio. “The latest death toll from the attack is now 767 civilians, 20 hostages and 376 members of the security forces, giving a total of 1,163. One person remains missing.” https://www.barrons.com/news/new-tally-puts-october-7-attack-dead-in-israel-at-1-163-78182279 https://www.barrons.com/news/new-tally-puts-october-7-attack...
        • wahnfrieden 3y ago
          Much of that was Israeli friendly fire
          • oa335 3y ago
            Indeed, both at kibbutz’s and the music festival https://youtu.be/3cPeRSVgUpQ https://youtu.be/3cPeRSVgUpQ
            • weweersdfsd 3y ago
              "The Electronic Intifada" doesn't sound like a very balanced and unbiased source.
              • cess11 3y ago
                You can find interviews with commanders and soldiers about it on israeli television as well. If you watch footage from Nova you'll see large patches of obvious damage from Hellfire missiles, and footage from kibbutzes commonly show damage way beyond what you'd expect from handgrenades or RPG:s.
              • oa335 3y ago
                Ok, here’s a an Israeli news outlet referencing the same event, but from the IDF perspective. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-rec.... The “biased” video I posted is simply a recording of an interview of a survivor of the kibbutz on an Israeli talk show. Do you have any substantive critique of the video, besides just lazily dismissing it as biased?
      • sillystuff 3y ago
        [flagged]
        • tptacek 3y ago
          I don't know about the "Israeli Zionist European settler Jews", but a plurality of all Israeli Jewish people are indigenous to MENA, so summing the population up that way is a little bit racist. I may be misreading you, though.
          • tsimionescu 3y ago
            I believe the poster above was referring to the biggest representatives of the extremist minority of Israel who are cheering this conflict on in those terms. Not all of Israel is pro-genocide, but those that are are more likely than not to be in that group.
            • tptacek 3y ago
              Ironically: the extremist minority in Israel is probably more likely to be of MENA origin, not less. Ben Gvir is from Iraq, for instance. The Mizrahim are generally more conservative, and the Ashkenazim are generally more liberal.
              • sillystuff 3y ago
                [flagged]
                • tptacek 3y ago
                  You keep referring to "indigenous" Palestinians and implying that Israelis are themselves interlopers. That simply isn't true. The fact that Netanyahu is Ashkenazi doesn't erase the ethnic identity of the plurality of Israeli Jewish people who are from the region, and for whom Israel is --- like the Palestinians --- their only real home. A lot of ugly stuff is certainly said by right-wing Israelis (who are, generally speaking, more likely to be indigenous than the left-leaning Ashkenazim). But there's also a great deal of erasure of hostile Palestinian advocacy in your summary as well. These discussions would be simpler if we could keep focus on the actual misdeeds of the Netanyahu administration, and stop trying to generalize problems out to Israel as a whole. It's not that it's impossible to make such an argument, but as you can see from your comment, those arguments are treacherously difficult to construct reliably without leaving gross, obvious, and sometimes even overtly racist generalizations in them. If you want to condemn the entirety of Israeli society, you aren't putting enough effort into your comments to do so here. At the end of the day, I don't think it's worth it to try to litigate that kind of question. We're not going to resolve Israel vs. Palestine in an HN thread. But if you must try, the guidelines ask you to try harder than that. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • NomDePlum 3y ago
    Can you site an example of this please? It's contradictory to my understanding of what is happening. By that, I mean, when the few remaining police left in Northern Gaza, who had reported to be critical to providing security for aid deliveries (and involved in coordination with Israel) where assassinated recently by Israel, and claimed as high ranking Hamas targets it pretty much cemented my opinion that nothing is true, or believable from Israel in this conflict. How are you defining terrorist here as well? As other than the horrific events of October 7th, and the hostages from that day, the only visible acts of violence and terror associated with Palestine appear to be towards anyone Palestinian, journalists, aid workers and medical staff.
    • YZF 3y ago
      Not sure what's the point of your last paragraph. Clearly there have been many documented visible "acts of violence" towards the IDF in Gaza. There have also been rockets fired from Gaza into Israel for weeks since Oct 7th and even in recent days. Plenty of "visible" acts of violence. By the way, Hamas also killed Palestinians they suspected of collaborating with Israel during this time. Hamas Police is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization (e.g. where I live in Canada). I.e. everyone in Hamas is a terrorist, at least in Canada, the US, the EU, and I'm pretty sure in Israel. They earned that by indiscriminately attacking civilians and according to organizations like Amnesty International committing crimes against humanity. Soldiers, even if they commit war crimes, are not generally labelled as terrorists. I know sucks to be a terrorist. They fight by different rules so they get different names (they wear uniforms etc.).
      • NomDePlum 3y ago
        What are the documented, visible acts of violence towards the IDF this year? I'm not questioning there haven't been any but it's difficult to imagine a more aggressive, punitive force at present. Everything I hear about them is them being the aggressor/instigator and in a high level of cases executioner. On the execution of civilian police I don't find it acceptable to label civilians as you want and then execute them. Those are obvious war crimes. In the case I'm talking about the group of police were some of the last able to assist aid getting through and had been doing that in coordination with the IDF. I find the reporting we get (UK) very IDF/Israel based, with no real perspective from Palestinians, but still it's clear that the deaths and suffering in the current conflict day to day are pretty much all a result of Israel's deliberate actions. It's not excusable what is happening. Does it matter what you are called if you are deliberately committing war crimes? If nothing else what will Israel be like as a place to live in with so many people who have deliberately and consciously decided to kill, starve, maime and persecute so many others? How will Palestine and Israel ever recover?
  • SZJX 3y ago
    And again, what would be the reason why a lot of people trying to live a “normal” life feel compelled to take up arms? Many will call it resistance in an occupied territory in a lot of other contexts. By this logic when the Nazis killed members of the resistance, of course they were also fighters in addition to whatever day jobs they had.
  • elygre 3y ago
    This is probably obvious, but just to make sure: This is the opinion of skinkestek, and not an objective truth. As another Norwegian, I do not share this opinion.
    • skinkestek 3y ago
      To avoid a back and forth here, people should feel free to find a way to analyse the confidence levels that newspapers use when quoting the different sides. - what entities are quoted using netral or confidence signaling language like "sier" (says), "i følge" (according to) and similar, "data fra" (data from) - what entities are quoted using language that gives low trust connotations: "påstår" (claims, but in Norwegian signalling low confidence) Feel free to also compare how the claimed Israeli bombing of a hospital early during Israels response affected the front pages, vs when it became clear that it was a rocket engine from Gaza that had hit a mostly empty parking lot ourside a hospital and left a dent in the asphalt. Since I argue in good faith I also encourage you elygre to provide similar ways to try to get something measurable to show your perspective. I pride myself (for the lack of a better term) with being able to change my views based on listening to others and have done so both when it comes to drug policies (I have gone from very strict to liberal), economics (I used to be anti socialism, now I have come to appreciate and defend our current Norwegian system very much), and I used to defend Israel in ways that I don't do anymore.
  • boppo1 3y ago
    What about the World Central Kitchen people? Aid workers and terrorists?
    • skinkestek 3y ago
      No! And someone needs to be held accountable whatever the reason is.
• jiggawatts 3y ago
  On the flip side, in this war many of the Gaza combatants are either irregular forces or militants deliberately wearing civilian clothing. So if some guy in a track suit and flip-flops uses an anti tank grenade launcher, discards the empty tube, walks away, and gets lit up, then the next day the Internet is awash with videos of the “IDF murdering a civilian!” For reference, I think both sides are in the wrong in this conflict, and Israel more than Gaza. However, the Internet is full of armchair international law experts that are being played like a fiddle by Hamas’ propaganda arm. Speaking of international laws of combat: no protections apply to non-uniformed combatants pretending to be civilians. None. They can be tortured, executed on the spot, whatever. If you want protections to apply to you, then wear a uniform or never go anywhere near a gun.
  • ein0p 3y ago
    Children and women do not shoot up tanks
    • kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3y ago
      [flagged]
      • ein0p 3y ago
        Doesn’t mean it’s true. Remember the source. A toddler can’t even lift an RPG
        • bloaf 3y ago
          The Palestinians have a well documented history of using children in combat. See for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_b...
          • mandmandam 3y ago
            From your own link: > At the height of the phenomenon, Avraham Burg, former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel, speaker of Israel's Knesset and interim President of Israel, stated his view that, given Israeli indifference to the tortured lives of Palestinian children under occupation, suicide bombings come as no surprise. ... Palestinians have been tortured from birth for decades. Acting surprised when they fight back is either disingenuous or stupid, or both.
• Aerroon 3y ago
  Another one is when you label any 15+ year old male as "military age" and treat them as combatants.