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> What can one do when criminals have embedded them self in the civilian population? Why don't they get out and meet the police on the battle field? We wouldn'

> What can one do when criminals have embedded them self in the civilian population? Why don't they get out and meet the police on the battle field? We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. > It is much better than the carpet bombing used by other nations. It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nations.

yonisto 3y ago
> We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. While I agree with comparing Hamas to the mafia, both are criminal organizations, Hamas is more than that. It has rockets, it mascaraed civilians and holds the ideology of genociding its enemy. None of that is applicable to the mafia. So if its people are hiding in an hospital and refuse to surrender there is no moral objection to blow up the hospital (Also, if you are referring to Shifa Hospital, Israel didn't blow it, they entered with SWAT teams and there were fierce fighting costing also Israeli soldiers lives) > It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nations. I'll link to Wikipedia to help you spot the differences [0] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing
- koutetsu 3y ago
  I think that no matter your view on the mafia or Hamas, it still doesn't justify the amount of death and destruction that is being done in Gaza. No matter how you spin it or sugar coat itw killing, displacing and starving civilians, killing aid workers and journalists and destroying civilian infrastructure are war crimes. As for the Al-Shifa Hospital, Israel's SWAT is either incompetent or not a SWAT team at all judging by the length of the operation, 2 weeks, and the photos of the Hospital after they left.
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    But Hamas is a cancer that constantly is trying to metastasize into Israel. Seriously, what is Israel supposed to do? Anything they label as "Do not attack" just becomes an attack vector for Hamas.
    - koutetsu 3y ago
      I will try to answer that question. I think it's better to find the actual reason for what's happening rather than focus on the symptoms. Perhaps Israel could stop being an apartheid[0,1] and treat Palestinians equally. It could also stop imposing a blockade on Gaza[2] and allow it to blossom again and remove the need for supporting Hamas. It could as well allow Palestinians to exercise their right to return to where they or their parents lived [3]. It's easy to point the fingers at Hamas for the region's suffering but that is dishonest and completely omits the big role that Israel played in creating this and previous events. [0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-p... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/apartheid https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/apartheid [2] https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-15-years-blockade-june-2022 https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitaria... [3] https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/27/gaza-two-rights-return https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/27/gaza-two-rights-return
      - tzs 3y ago
        > I think it's better to find the actual reason for what's happening rather than focus on the symptoms You should take your own advice. You didn't cite any reasons. You just cited earlier symptoms.
        koutetsu 3y ago
        Perhaps you could help me with that? I was trying to reply to the parent's question about what Israel is supposed to do and offered some alternatives to indiscriminate killings. The part about the right of return dates back to around 1948, right around the time the state of Israel was established. How far back in time should we go for it to stop being a symptom and become a cause?
  - yonisto 3y ago
    [flagged]
- dimal 3y ago
  Your argument is just whataboutism and barely worth even engaging with. It is possible that both sides of the military conflict are wrong. Being against Israel’s actions here don’t imply support for Hamas and vice versa. In this case, Israel is the one with most of the power, and they’ve used that power to kill far more people than Hamas. To defend that abuse of power is immoral.
  - yonisto 3y ago
    It seems that you learned a new word "whataboutism" and don't really know how to use it. Hamas is controlling Gaza for 15 years now. Did they care about the population? did they build roads, schools? or dig tunnels and accumulated weapons? So what ideas do you have? giving them candies? Hamas must be eliminated from position of power, yes it will cost innocent lives, but if you ever wish to move toward peace that is the first step.
    - dimal 3y ago
      And Israel is blameless in all this? They’ve done nothing wrong? Colonizing the West Bank is just fine? You can’t pull the shit they have and not expect splashback. They’ve put the Palestians in a cage, poked them with a stick, and now they act surprised when some of them lash out. I’m not going to defend Hamas’s actions, but what the hell can you expect? Shake a hornets nest and you’re going to get stung. And if the cost of eliminating Hamas is killing innocent people, don’t you think that might radicalize some of the remaining people? This kind of shit hasn’t worked in the past, so why would it work now? They’re killing innocent people for no good reason.
      - yonisto 3y ago
        Sure it has worked in the past, eradicating both Nazi Germany and Empire of Japan during WWII cost many innocent lives. "Few" millions. Now let us count together the wars started by these nations started afterward. I'll start: 0 Of course it will all amount to nothing if Israel will not finish the job. > And Israel is blameless in all this... The problem is that you assign 0 responsibility to Hamas. As if they are lesser human as if you consider them as dogs or something. Hamas took full control of Gaza, they could have done whatever they like and the choose to invest everything into attacking Israel. Evidently it wasn't much of a cage as they accumulated enough weapon to engage in 6 months war (and counting...). Fact remains that Israel decolonizied Gaza and in return they got October 7. What lesson should they learn from it?
stefan_ 3y ago
Because this is war and not a SWAT police operation? If soldiers in the field have reason to believe the enemy is in a building and call in air support to bomb it, no part of that is a war crime. Even if someone later goes and discovers the people in that building were actually preschoolers; what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  You realize you're actively advocating for a lack of critical thinking and investigation, to maintain plausible deniability? What could possibly go wrong?
- ThalesX 3y ago
  > what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment This is insane. What matters is the objective truth, whether or not dozens of preschoolers were killed due to an operational mistake.
  - stefan_ 3y ago
    War is horrible, what’s new? But few things in it qualify for war crimes.
mmustapic 3y ago
Would Israel blow an israeli hospital if Hamas took the basement?
- ngcazz 3y ago
  I mean... per the Hannibal doctrine they might just
  - theoldlove 3y ago
    For an explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel-Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel...
- yonisto 3y ago
  If they would take just the basement that would be unnecessary, but they took everything up to the roof.

yonisto 3y ago

> We wouldn't tolerate a SWAT team blowing up a hospital if the mafia had taken over the basement, I have no idea why you think this is acceptable. While I agree with comparing Hamas to the mafia, both are criminal organizations, Hamas is more than that. It has rockets, it mascaraed civilians and holds the ideology of genociding its enemy. None of that is applicable to the mafia. So if its people are hiding in an hospital and refuse to surrender there is no moral objection to blow up the hospital (Also, if you are referring to Shifa Hospital, Israel didn't blow it, they entered with SWAT teams and there were fierce fighting costing also Israeli soldiers lives) > It is exactly like the carpet bombing used by other nations. I'll link to Wikipedia to help you spot the differences [0] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing

koutetsu 3y ago
I think that no matter your view on the mafia or Hamas, it still doesn't justify the amount of death and destruction that is being done in Gaza. No matter how you spin it or sugar coat itw killing, displacing and starving civilians, killing aid workers and journalists and destroying civilian infrastructure are war crimes. As for the Al-Shifa Hospital, Israel's SWAT is either incompetent or not a SWAT team at all judging by the length of the operation, 2 weeks, and the photos of the Hospital after they left.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  But Hamas is a cancer that constantly is trying to metastasize into Israel. Seriously, what is Israel supposed to do? Anything they label as "Do not attack" just becomes an attack vector for Hamas.
  - koutetsu 3y ago
    I will try to answer that question. I think it's better to find the actual reason for what's happening rather than focus on the symptoms. Perhaps Israel could stop being an apartheid[0,1] and treat Palestinians equally. It could also stop imposing a blockade on Gaza[2] and allow it to blossom again and remove the need for supporting Hamas. It could as well allow Palestinians to exercise their right to return to where they or their parents lived [3]. It's easy to point the fingers at Hamas for the region's suffering but that is dishonest and completely omits the big role that Israel played in creating this and previous events. [0] https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-palestinians-rise-level-apartheid https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/05/does-israels-treatment-p... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/apartheid https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/apartheid [2] https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-15-years-blockade-june-2022 https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitaria... [3] https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/27/gaza-two-rights-return https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/27/gaza-two-rights-return
    - tzs 3y ago
      > I think it's better to find the actual reason for what's happening rather than focus on the symptoms You should take your own advice. You didn't cite any reasons. You just cited earlier symptoms.
      - koutetsu 3y ago
        Perhaps you could help me with that? I was trying to reply to the parent's question about what Israel is supposed to do and offered some alternatives to indiscriminate killings. The part about the right of return dates back to around 1948, right around the time the state of Israel was established. How far back in time should we go for it to stop being a symptom and become a cause?
- yonisto 3y ago
  [flagged]
dimal 3y ago
Your argument is just whataboutism and barely worth even engaging with. It is possible that both sides of the military conflict are wrong. Being against Israel’s actions here don’t imply support for Hamas and vice versa. In this case, Israel is the one with most of the power, and they’ve used that power to kill far more people than Hamas. To defend that abuse of power is immoral.
- yonisto 3y ago
  It seems that you learned a new word "whataboutism" and don't really know how to use it. Hamas is controlling Gaza for 15 years now. Did they care about the population? did they build roads, schools? or dig tunnels and accumulated weapons? So what ideas do you have? giving them candies? Hamas must be eliminated from position of power, yes it will cost innocent lives, but if you ever wish to move toward peace that is the first step.
  - dimal 3y ago
    And Israel is blameless in all this? They’ve done nothing wrong? Colonizing the West Bank is just fine? You can’t pull the shit they have and not expect splashback. They’ve put the Palestians in a cage, poked them with a stick, and now they act surprised when some of them lash out. I’m not going to defend Hamas’s actions, but what the hell can you expect? Shake a hornets nest and you’re going to get stung. And if the cost of eliminating Hamas is killing innocent people, don’t you think that might radicalize some of the remaining people? This kind of shit hasn’t worked in the past, so why would it work now? They’re killing innocent people for no good reason.
    - yonisto 3y ago
      Sure it has worked in the past, eradicating both Nazi Germany and Empire of Japan during WWII cost many innocent lives. "Few" millions. Now let us count together the wars started by these nations started afterward. I'll start: 0 Of course it will all amount to nothing if Israel will not finish the job. > And Israel is blameless in all this... The problem is that you assign 0 responsibility to Hamas. As if they are lesser human as if you consider them as dogs or something. Hamas took full control of Gaza, they could have done whatever they like and the choose to invest everything into attacking Israel. Evidently it wasn't much of a cage as they accumulated enough weapon to engage in 6 months war (and counting...). Fact remains that Israel decolonizied Gaza and in return they got October 7. What lesson should they learn from it?

stefan_ 3y ago

Because this is war and not a SWAT police operation? If soldiers in the field have reason to believe the enemy is in a building and call in air support to bomb it, no part of that is a war crime. Even if someone later goes and discovers the people in that building were actually preschoolers; what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment.

FireBeyond 3y ago
You realize you're actively advocating for a lack of critical thinking and investigation, to maintain plausible deniability? What could possibly go wrong?
ThalesX 3y ago
> what matters is what the people in the field making the decisions knew at that moment This is insane. What matters is the objective truth, whether or not dozens of preschoolers were killed due to an operational mistake.
- stefan_ 3y ago
  War is horrible, what’s new? But few things in it qualify for war crimes.

mmustapic 3y ago

Would Israel blow an israeli hospital if Hamas took the basement?

ngcazz 3y ago
I mean... per the Hannibal doctrine they might just
- theoldlove 3y ago
  For an explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel-Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive#2023_Israel...
yonisto 3y ago
If they would take just the basement that would be unnecessary, but they took everything up to the roof.