6 ms·

Why do electric car company try to bite off so much? The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel", but that should be extended to not re-inventing door handles,

Why do electric car company try to bite off so much? The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel", but that should be extended to not re-inventing door handles, speedometers and the basic driving controls that have evolved over the last century. My car has a mechanical latch. No wires. No electricity. The lock has an electric actuator, but the mechanical linkages work just fine without power. Who out there was on the focus group wanting electric-only doors?

bobthepanda 3y ago
Electric only doors unfortunately are not new, given that I struggle to find a decent minivan with doors that can be opened manually
- drcongo 3y ago
  Toyota Sienna? Nissan Serena?
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Toyota Sienna has power sliding doors in all 2024 models. Nissan Serena is not sold in the US
    - bombcar 3y ago
      If you want a minivan without power sliding doors, you're going to be out of luck. If you want a minivan where the doors can still be opened with no power, most of them can.
      - bobthepanda 3y ago
        at least all the modern ones i've seen, you cannot open them all the way using only manual and without power, because it's not good for the motors. or maybe that's one of those common myths.
        bombcar 3y ago
        The manuals I've looked at say something like "don't open it without power, it may damage things. If you have to open it without power, be careful." At least the Kia mentions non-power doors, so even if not available in the USA they're made somewhere for some market. If you really wanted to, you could probably import the parts and swap.
        drcongo 3y ago
        Ah, I see! I have a Toyota Vellfire and you can just turn the power doors off, when you do that they behave exactly like non-power doors. When I was over in Austin recently I got a ride in a Sienna taxi and the back doors were manual in that, so presumably that model lets you switch them off too.
    - drcongo 3y ago
      But they can be opened and closed manually which is what you asked for. edit: replied before reading further down the thread, have replied more usefully further down.
dave78 3y ago
I assume some of it is because these electric car companies need an edge - if they just made the car the same way Toyota and Honda does then it would appear to the consumer to just be an electrified Civic or Corolla. I think they're trying to come off as futuristic, luxury, and exotic, and I guess that requires making things different for the sake of differentiation. Perhaps it's also a bit of arrogance, thinking that they can make a better door handle than the old, stodgy automakers (and then finding out the hard way that sometimes things are the way they are for a reason). On the other hand, I've noticed on my last few cars that the door handles sometimes feel like they're going to break if I pull too hard, like when the doors are frozen shut during freezing rain conditions. Maybe the traditional handles aren't that great either (though none have actually broken on me yet).
- sandworm101 3y ago
  >> just be an electrified Civic Take my money! That is exactly what I want. I want a basic car that does car stuff. Cut the networking. Cut the touchscreens. I want a car that starts and moves reliably with some basic comforts. I would pay more for a car without touchscreens. I would pay more for an electric car without bluetooth.
  - kraquepype 3y ago
    Same, I ended up with a Kia Niro EV (previous gen) because it doesn't resemble your typical bleeding edge EV. It shares a platform with the ICE Niro, and aside from the charging port and obvious lack of exhaust pipe it doesn't look like an EV. Give me a basic EV that looks like a normal car and I'd be happy.
  - MarkusWandel 3y ago
    Then buy a Civic. I have a 2023. It has a touchscreen. Which is entirely devoted to "non core functionality" such as bluetooth calling (which also has steering wheel controls), Android Auto/Apple Carplay, radio etc. The only "core" functionality is that it displays backup camera video when reversing. All the standard buttons and controls are there. The button to push the trunk, the child lock enable/disable, the mirror adjusts, the (electric) parking brake, you name it. Nothing that was a physical control on my previous cars has been touchscreened. The car even has a completely separate menu system, with a completely separate gauge-cluster LCD, for the "core" stuff. Not touch screen. Steering wheel buttons. That menu system isn't the greatest, but you also don't need it day to day.
83 3y ago
Just looking inside a modern car door panel should give you some idea why. It's a 3d jigsaw puzzle of door linkages, switches, window lifter, speaker, etc and the metal stamping die to make the inner panel must be insanely complex. An electric only latch would reduce parts count, simplify assembly, and ease door panel design for a new manufacturer. I'm also strongly in the "keep things mechanical" camp but I see the appeal to engineers making a new model car and wanting to keep things simple.
- numpad0 3y ago
  Thay come with that jigsaw puzzles anyway. Manual release is required.
  - testval123 3y ago
    If my car is on fire I sure as heck don't want to rely on an electrical door release
  - 83 3y ago
    >>Manual release is required. Is it? Happy to be proven wrong since I'm far from an expert on FMVSS, but what I've seen specifies capabilities like ability to lock and amount of force it must endure, not the actual implementation (mechanical/electrical/etc). Regardless the article only tells us the "emergency override mechanism did not work". Whether that is electrical or mechanical we can only guess (one would hope mechanical).
    - numpad0 3y ago
      TIL, [0]: FMVSS No. 206 does not directly regulate either interior or exterior door handles. It does, however, impliedly require both interior and exterior door handles or other release mechanisms in its regulation of door locks (see generally, 49 CFR 571.206, S4.1.3 and S4.4.2). Also UNECE R11[1] soft-require mechanical external door handles. I think there are also other implied requirements from other sections/directives, such as in crash safety that the doors are required to be locked while crashing, unlocked after a crash, can be opened but not unlatched and flopping. Meanwhile, electrical systems would be required not to pose hazards. I’m guessing those together are ruling out all but flap type manual handles, at least on front side doors. 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm 1: p.23 https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R011r2e.pdf https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/201...
IncreasePosts 3y ago
I think the flat door handles are because EVs biggest enemy to range is wind resistance, and so they flatten the door handles to get an extra .5% range. Do that on 15 different parts of a car and you've got yourself a 300 mile range.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  FWIW my Polestar 2 has a 300 mile range and regular door handles.
  - IncreasePosts 3y ago
    Sure, but it would have a 301.5 mile range if they flattened those door handles!
    - Rinzler89 3y ago
      You could also reach the 301.5 mile range by going on a diet/skipping breakfast. Win-win.
- sandworm101 3y ago
  But a flat handle doesn't need to be electric. Literally every aircraft built in the last fifty years has used a flat/recessed door handles. From the biggest 747 to the smallest Cessna, they all have manual levers that fold flat to reduce drag. All are designed to last essentially forever despite constant use. None of them need electricity to open.
  - IncreasePosts 3y ago
    At least in the Model Y(which I'm familiar with), I believe the door handles are electrically actuated because the car also needs to slightly roll down the window before allowing the door to open, which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.
    - 3y ago
NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
>The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel" TSLA: check out my yoke!
- sandworm101 3y ago
  That's not re-invention. That is just re-hashing. Every decade some car designer "invents" another not-round steering wheel. Every one has been a flop.
  - rainbowzootsuit 3y ago
    It worked for KITT, so why not a production car?
    - bdcravens 3y ago
      Where's my Turbo Boost?
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Forget the yoke - the new Model 3 still has a wheel but removed the stalks, moving the turn signal to buttons on the steering wheel and everything else to the touchscreen (though there's a second set of gear changes in the ceiling)
  - NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
    I think, in fairness, we have to blame Ferrari for that - they did it first with the Enzo, and brought it to their "base" models with the 458, I think?
etimberg 3y ago
It's typical tech hubris to think that all these problems are so simple.
SoftTalker 3y ago
Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. Central locking and motorized windows are just standard now. Once you have the wiring and mechanisms in place for that, an automatic latch isn't a big step. But there should be a reliable manual override. Being able to get out of the car can be a life-or-death safety issue. Even with manual latches, people are advised to keep a hammer in the car to break a window if necessary.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Maybe these startup companies should start with boring trade vehicles (which even today often have manual windows and locks) instead of the flashy consumer cars. But that won't attract the VC funding.
  - voisin 3y ago
    That would have a bigger environmental impact as those vehicles tend to get significantly more use.
- marssaxman 3y ago
  > Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. I would pay extra for a car with those features! If only. Alas, your point stands, because there are (apparently) very few people like me.
voisin 3y ago
I am unclear why regulators haven’t taken aim at this for safety reasons given how regulated every other component of a vehicle is. Same with the digitization of the dashboard, which is a massive distraction while driving. And at the same time, height of the front hood - why haven’t regulators had anything to say with trucks having hoods well above the height of many pedestrians?

bobthepanda 3y ago

Electric only doors unfortunately are not new, given that I struggle to find a decent minivan with doors that can be opened manually

drcongo 3y ago
Toyota Sienna? Nissan Serena?
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Toyota Sienna has power sliding doors in all 2024 models. Nissan Serena is not sold in the US
  - bombcar 3y ago
    If you want a minivan without power sliding doors, you're going to be out of luck. If you want a minivan where the doors can still be opened with no power, most of them can.
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      at least all the modern ones i've seen, you cannot open them all the way using only manual and without power, because it's not good for the motors. or maybe that's one of those common myths.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        The manuals I've looked at say something like "don't open it without power, it may damage things. If you have to open it without power, be careful." At least the Kia mentions non-power doors, so even if not available in the USA they're made somewhere for some market. If you really wanted to, you could probably import the parts and swap.
      - drcongo 3y ago
        Ah, I see! I have a Toyota Vellfire and you can just turn the power doors off, when you do that they behave exactly like non-power doors. When I was over in Austin recently I got a ride in a Sienna taxi and the back doors were manual in that, so presumably that model lets you switch them off too.
  - drcongo 3y ago
    But they can be opened and closed manually which is what you asked for. edit: replied before reading further down the thread, have replied more usefully further down.

dave78 3y ago

I assume some of it is because these electric car companies need an edge - if they just made the car the same way Toyota and Honda does then it would appear to the consumer to just be an electrified Civic or Corolla. I think they're trying to come off as futuristic, luxury, and exotic, and I guess that requires making things different for the sake of differentiation. Perhaps it's also a bit of arrogance, thinking that they can make a better door handle than the old, stodgy automakers (and then finding out the hard way that sometimes things are the way they are for a reason). On the other hand, I've noticed on my last few cars that the door handles sometimes feel like they're going to break if I pull too hard, like when the doors are frozen shut during freezing rain conditions. Maybe the traditional handles aren't that great either (though none have actually broken on me yet).

sandworm101 3y ago
>> just be an electrified Civic Take my money! That is exactly what I want. I want a basic car that does car stuff. Cut the networking. Cut the touchscreens. I want a car that starts and moves reliably with some basic comforts. I would pay more for a car without touchscreens. I would pay more for an electric car without bluetooth.
- kraquepype 3y ago
  Same, I ended up with a Kia Niro EV (previous gen) because it doesn't resemble your typical bleeding edge EV. It shares a platform with the ICE Niro, and aside from the charging port and obvious lack of exhaust pipe it doesn't look like an EV. Give me a basic EV that looks like a normal car and I'd be happy.
- MarkusWandel 3y ago
  Then buy a Civic. I have a 2023. It has a touchscreen. Which is entirely devoted to "non core functionality" such as bluetooth calling (which also has steering wheel controls), Android Auto/Apple Carplay, radio etc. The only "core" functionality is that it displays backup camera video when reversing. All the standard buttons and controls are there. The button to push the trunk, the child lock enable/disable, the mirror adjusts, the (electric) parking brake, you name it. Nothing that was a physical control on my previous cars has been touchscreened. The car even has a completely separate menu system, with a completely separate gauge-cluster LCD, for the "core" stuff. Not touch screen. Steering wheel buttons. That menu system isn't the greatest, but you also don't need it day to day.

83 3y ago

Just looking inside a modern car door panel should give you some idea why. It's a 3d jigsaw puzzle of door linkages, switches, window lifter, speaker, etc and the metal stamping die to make the inner panel must be insanely complex. An electric only latch would reduce parts count, simplify assembly, and ease door panel design for a new manufacturer. I'm also strongly in the "keep things mechanical" camp but I see the appeal to engineers making a new model car and wanting to keep things simple.

numpad0 3y ago
Thay come with that jigsaw puzzles anyway. Manual release is required.
- testval123 3y ago
  If my car is on fire I sure as heck don't want to rely on an electrical door release
- 83 3y ago
  >>Manual release is required. Is it? Happy to be proven wrong since I'm far from an expert on FMVSS, but what I've seen specifies capabilities like ability to lock and amount of force it must endure, not the actual implementation (mechanical/electrical/etc). Regardless the article only tells us the "emergency override mechanism did not work". Whether that is electrical or mechanical we can only guess (one would hope mechanical).
  - numpad0 3y ago
    TIL, [0]: FMVSS No. 206 does not directly regulate either interior or exterior door handles. It does, however, impliedly require both interior and exterior door handles or other release mechanisms in its regulation of door locks (see generally, 49 CFR 571.206, S4.1.3 and S4.4.2). Also UNECE R11[1] soft-require mechanical external door handles. I think there are also other implied requirements from other sections/directives, such as in crash safety that the doors are required to be locked while crashing, unlocked after a crash, can be opened but not unlatched and flopping. Meanwhile, electrical systems would be required not to pose hazards. I’m guessing those together are ruling out all but flap type manual handles, at least on front side doors. 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/24393rbm 1: p.23 https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R011r2e.pdf https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/201...

IncreasePosts 3y ago

I think the flat door handles are because EVs biggest enemy to range is wind resistance, and so they flatten the door handles to get an extra .5% range. Do that on 15 different parts of a car and you've got yourself a 300 mile range.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
FWIW my Polestar 2 has a 300 mile range and regular door handles.
- IncreasePosts 3y ago
  Sure, but it would have a 301.5 mile range if they flattened those door handles!
  - Rinzler89 3y ago
    You could also reach the 301.5 mile range by going on a diet/skipping breakfast. Win-win.
sandworm101 3y ago
But a flat handle doesn't need to be electric. Literally every aircraft built in the last fifty years has used a flat/recessed door handles. From the biggest 747 to the smallest Cessna, they all have manual levers that fold flat to reduce drag. All are designed to last essentially forever despite constant use. None of them need electricity to open.
- IncreasePosts 3y ago
  At least in the Model Y(which I'm familiar with), I believe the door handles are electrically actuated because the car also needs to slightly roll down the window before allowing the door to open, which allows them to not have the normal metal frame around the window.
  - 3y ago

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago

>The saying goes "don't re-invent the wheel" TSLA: check out my yoke!

sandworm101 3y ago
That's not re-invention. That is just re-hashing. Every decade some car designer "invents" another not-round steering wheel. Every one has been a flop.
- rainbowzootsuit 3y ago
  It worked for KITT, so why not a production car?
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    Where's my Turbo Boost?
bdcravens 3y ago
Forget the yoke - the new Model 3 still has a wheel but removed the stalks, moving the turn signal to buttons on the steering wheel and everything else to the touchscreen (though there's a second set of gear changes in the ceiling)
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  I think, in fairness, we have to blame Ferrari for that - they did it first with the Enzo, and brought it to their "base" models with the 458, I think?

etimberg 3y ago

It's typical tech hubris to think that all these problems are so simple.

SoftTalker 3y ago

Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. Central locking and motorized windows are just standard now. Once you have the wiring and mechanisms in place for that, an automatic latch isn't a big step. But there should be a reliable manual override. Being able to get out of the car can be a life-or-death safety issue. Even with manual latches, people are advised to keep a hammer in the car to break a window if necessary.

bombcar 3y ago
Maybe these startup companies should start with boring trade vehicles (which even today often have manual windows and locks) instead of the flashy consumer cars. But that won't attract the VC funding.
- voisin 3y ago
  That would have a bigger environmental impact as those vehicles tend to get significantly more use.
marssaxman 3y ago
> Very few customers would want hand-crank windows and individual manual locks on doors. I would pay extra for a car with those features! If only. Alas, your point stands, because there are (apparently) very few people like me.

voisin 3y ago

I am unclear why regulators haven’t taken aim at this for safety reasons given how regulated every other component of a vehicle is. Same with the digitization of the dashboard, which is a massive distraction while driving. And at the same time, height of the front hood - why haven’t regulators had anything to say with trucks having hoods well above the height of many pedestrians?