5 ms·

Generally speaking this is the model I’ve always been wanted to build apps in. Event oriented, bidirectional realtime updates with server, ordered events, local

by klabb3 3y ago

Generally speaking this is the model I’ve always been wanted to build apps in. Event oriented, bidirectional realtime updates with server, ordered events, local and remote state... I didn’t know about LiveView and never used erlang-family languages, but definitely they’re onto something. The traditional request-response model is many times causing a lot of subtle problems with consistency and staleness. A wishful (probably also controversial) thought: if the last decade was about integrating FP concepts into mainstream languages, then I hope the next decade will be oriented around integrating stateful message-oriented (reactive?) programming into the mainstream full stack.

nmk 3y ago
> I hope the next decade will be oriented around integrating stateful message-oriented (reactive?) programming into the mainstream full stack Also known as MVC before Rails decided to redefine the term.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Java redefined the term MVC a long time after Smalltalk originally defined the term in the 70's. Rails didn't redefine the term, it much later copied the (poorly) redefined term from Java and tweaked it a little. Smalltalk MVC and Java/Rails MVC are EXTREMELY different. Java and Ruby's MVC are quite similar (and loosely based on a superficial misunderstanding Smalltalk's MVC).
- klabb3 3y ago
  Maybe? Most good ideas have been out there for decades. Getting the execution right is what’s hard.
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  No, MVC is at best orthogonal to message-passing.
cess11 3y ago
You can use asdf to install erlang/BEAM/OTP and elixir, takes a few minutes if you have some previous experience with the tool. Either way it'll probably take about two hours to have your first rudimentary Phoenix chat application loaded in a browser if you follow some guides and tinker around a bit.
- square_usual 3y ago
  I would strongly recommend using mise instead of asdf. It's a drop in replacement that is just flat out better for most people.
  - karmajunkie 3y ago
    curious, what makes it better? asdf has always just worked for me, but this is the first time i’ve heard of mise, so i’m wondering what i’m potentially missing out on
    - cess11 3y ago
      Maybe it works better with tmux?
    - square_usual 3y ago
      The mise docs have a great comparison page: https://mise.jdx.dev/dev-tools/comparison-to-asdf.html https://mise.jdx.dev/dev-tools/comparison-to-asdf.html In personal experience, all of these have held true. Mise is just easier to use than asdf and I don't have to `asdf -h` every time I have to use it. The performance is significantly better and I can use mise exec in shebangs without sacrificing too much startup time. And it's easier to install because it's a SLSE. I wouldn't say it's worth deliberately switching from asdf (though I would, because asdf's CLI is an endless annoyance to me), but if you're on a new machine I don't think there is a reason to use asdf over mise.
      - jeremyjh 3y ago
        Anyone who wants "nodejs latest:20" in their .tool-versions file is probably confused. The point of .tool-versions is to pin a particular version in your source control so you know your whole team is on the same version in that branch. Getting the latest revision whenever you install means pointless drift.
floodfx 3y ago
There are LiveView backends written in Javascript (http://liveviewjs.com http://liveviewjs.com), Go (https://github.com/canopyclimate/golive https://github.com/canopyclimate/golive), Java (https://github.com/floodfx/undead https://github.com/floodfx/undead), and Python (https://github.com/ogrodnek/pyview https://github.com/ogrodnek/pyview). Disclaimer: I wrote or helped write the first three.

by klabb3 3y ago

nmk 3y ago

> I hope the next decade will be oriented around integrating stateful message-oriented (reactive?) programming into the mainstream full stack Also known as MVC before Rails decided to redefine the term.

DonHopkins 3y ago
Java redefined the term MVC a long time after Smalltalk originally defined the term in the 70's. Rails didn't redefine the term, it much later copied the (poorly) redefined term from Java and tweaked it a little. Smalltalk MVC and Java/Rails MVC are EXTREMELY different. Java and Ruby's MVC are quite similar (and loosely based on a superficial misunderstanding Smalltalk's MVC).
klabb3 3y ago
Maybe? Most good ideas have been out there for decades. Getting the execution right is what’s hard.
andrewflnr 3y ago
No, MVC is at best orthogonal to message-passing.

cess11 3y ago

You can use asdf to install erlang/BEAM/OTP and elixir, takes a few minutes if you have some previous experience with the tool. Either way it'll probably take about two hours to have your first rudimentary Phoenix chat application loaded in a browser if you follow some guides and tinker around a bit.

square_usual 3y ago
I would strongly recommend using mise instead of asdf. It's a drop in replacement that is just flat out better for most people.
- karmajunkie 3y ago
  curious, what makes it better? asdf has always just worked for me, but this is the first time i’ve heard of mise, so i’m wondering what i’m potentially missing out on
  - cess11 3y ago
    Maybe it works better with tmux?
  - square_usual 3y ago
    The mise docs have a great comparison page: https://mise.jdx.dev/dev-tools/comparison-to-asdf.html https://mise.jdx.dev/dev-tools/comparison-to-asdf.html In personal experience, all of these have held true. Mise is just easier to use than asdf and I don't have to `asdf -h` every time I have to use it. The performance is significantly better and I can use mise exec in shebangs without sacrificing too much startup time. And it's easier to install because it's a SLSE. I wouldn't say it's worth deliberately switching from asdf (though I would, because asdf's CLI is an endless annoyance to me), but if you're on a new machine I don't think there is a reason to use asdf over mise.
    - jeremyjh 3y ago
      Anyone who wants "nodejs latest:20" in their .tool-versions file is probably confused. The point of .tool-versions is to pin a particular version in your source control so you know your whole team is on the same version in that branch. Getting the latest revision whenever you install means pointless drift.

floodfx 3y ago

There are LiveView backends written in Javascript (http://liveviewjs.com http://liveviewjs.com), Go (https://github.com/canopyclimate/golive https://github.com/canopyclimate/golive), Java (https://github.com/floodfx/undead https://github.com/floodfx/undead), and Python (https://github.com/ogrodnek/pyview https://github.com/ogrodnek/pyview). Disclaimer: I wrote or helped write the first three.