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that would explain the news today of how Israel killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-we-know-so-far-about-se

by jijji 3y ago

that would explain the news today of how Israel killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-we-know-so-far-about-seven-aid-workers-killed-gaza-by-israel-2024-04-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-we-know-so-fa...

ceejayoz 3y ago
Shades of https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-i.... > It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent. > Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.
- arp242 3y ago
  In the case of Al Qaeda, that might actually have been true? I don't think you can really compare Hamas to Al Qaeda; almost everything meaningful is different.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > In the case of Al Qaeda, that might actually have been true? Very clearly not, as admitted by the man himself. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-strikes-killed-civilians-that-shouldnt-have-been https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-stri...
    - arp242 3y ago
      That doesn't mention Al Qaeda? It just talks about drone strikes against ISIS, which is yet again quite a different organisation than Al Qaeda and Hamas.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        So ISIS gives "hitchhike rides [to innocent neighbors] in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs"? If you want Al Qaeda-specific cases, they take about three seconds to find. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/18/pentagon-drone-strike-syria-civilian-al-qaeda/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/18/pentagon-dro..., for example. edit: The Yemen case cited in my link above was AQ; https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral/us-drone-attack-marriage-procession-yemen https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral... "They were an adult male near a target" is not a safe way of determining guilt for capital crimes. We should not accept it.
        arp242 3y ago
        What is your point even? All I said is that you can't compare Al Qaeda and Hamas, and how they operate, and how to combat them. I never said that US drone strikes were/are 100% perfect, or even that I liked the entire programme.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        My point is "if they're near a target they're a target" is an insane standard to use for these sorts of strikes, and the article this entire HN discussion is about makes it pretty clear such a standard is in use in Gaza right now. > This was despite knowing that the system makes what are regarded as “errors” in approximately 10 percent of cases, and is known to occasionally mark individuals who have merely a loose connection to militant groups, or no connection at all. > Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. > “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”
RUnconcerned 3y ago
They didn't want to kill the aid workers, but the evil AI made them do it.
- supposemaybe 3y ago
  And they would have lived too, if it weren’t for that pesky AI!!
jijji 3y ago
here's another story today from France24 about the over-reliance on AI driven targetting may have been responsible for the airstrike on April 1st 2024 that killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0] [0] https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-wo...

by jijji 3y ago

ceejayoz 3y ago

Shades of https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-i.... > It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent. > Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.

arp242 3y ago
In the case of Al Qaeda, that might actually have been true? I don't think you can really compare Hamas to Al Qaeda; almost everything meaningful is different.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > In the case of Al Qaeda, that might actually have been true? Very clearly not, as admitted by the man himself. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-strikes-killed-civilians-that-shouldnt-have-been https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/obama-says-u-s-drone-stri...
  - arp242 3y ago
    That doesn't mention Al Qaeda? It just talks about drone strikes against ISIS, which is yet again quite a different organisation than Al Qaeda and Hamas.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      So ISIS gives "hitchhike rides [to innocent neighbors] in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs"? If you want Al Qaeda-specific cases, they take about three seconds to find. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/18/pentagon-drone-strike-syria-civilian-al-qaeda/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/18/pentagon-dro..., for example. edit: The Yemen case cited in my link above was AQ; https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral/us-drone-attack-marriage-procession-yemen https://www.hrw.org/report/2014/02/19/wedding-became-funeral... "They were an adult male near a target" is not a safe way of determining guilt for capital crimes. We should not accept it.
      - arp242 3y ago
        What is your point even? All I said is that you can't compare Al Qaeda and Hamas, and how they operate, and how to combat them. I never said that US drone strikes were/are 100% perfect, or even that I liked the entire programme.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        My point is "if they're near a target they're a target" is an insane standard to use for these sorts of strikes, and the article this entire HN discussion is about makes it pretty clear such a standard is in use in Gaza right now. > This was despite knowing that the system makes what are regarded as “errors” in approximately 10 percent of cases, and is known to occasionally mark individuals who have merely a loose connection to militant groups, or no connection at all. > Moreover, the Israeli army systematically attacked the targeted individuals while they were in their homes — usually at night while their whole families were present — rather than during the course of military activity. > “We were not interested in killing [Hamas] operatives only when they were in a military building or engaged in a military activity,” A., an intelligence officer, told +972 and Local Call. “On the contrary, the IDF bombed them in homes without hesitation, as a first option. It’s much easier to bomb a family’s home. The system is built to look for them in these situations.”

RUnconcerned 3y ago

They didn't want to kill the aid workers, but the evil AI made them do it.

supposemaybe 3y ago
And they would have lived too, if it weren’t for that pesky AI!!

jijji 3y ago

here's another story today from France24 about the over-reliance on AI driven targetting may have been responsible for the airstrike on April 1st 2024 that killed seven aid workers in Gaza [0] [0] https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-wo...