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>and are actively hostile to simply existing in the outside natural world. Are you really going to claim that living in a city is part of the natural world? Wh

>and are actively hostile to simply existing in the outside natural world. Are you really going to claim that living in a city is part of the natural world? Why is it that whenever a city has a blackout, people call the police terrified of seeing stars in the sky? >Urbanists hate them because they are designed for cars instead of people That may be a valid point for old cities that predate the industrial revolution. But there's nothing about NYC, LA or any of the other major US cities that are people centric. Besides, I can flip that argument on its head, cities are limiting and put people in cocoons never having to leave their own neighborhood and see the world. Have car, can travel. >There are numerous videos from urbanism channels Because videos from random youtubers with stated agendas are objective sources? >The automobile is America’s largest wealth destroyer that takes car payments averaging something like $500-700 a month That's cherry picked if I've ever seen it. There's a massive used car market and cars can last for decades when cared for. Mine is old enough to drink at this point and cost $4k outright. Now there definitely is a problem with new cars, especially EVs being a right to repair nightmare. But there's a large overlap between those who push BEVs and urbanization. I agree that there is a massive issue with the TCO of these vehicles, a battery lasts 10 years and will cost more than the value of the car to replace at that point and they aren't even making them easy to replace. And nobody seems to care. If you ask me, it almost seems as if a backdoor way to make sure the poor cant afford a car and are forced to live in cities in 20 years. Look, you have your preference, that's cool. That's the nice thing about choice, you can live where you want and you don't have to show the commissar work papers that let you live there. Cities aren't going anywhere so there's no need to feel threatened by suburbs. People who want to live in suburbs and have a patch of grass to call their own will. And they aren't hurting you by doing so.

dangus 3y ago
> Are you really going to claim that living in a city is part of the natural world? I’ll pick little example. Get on Google Maps. Put a pin down at Trebes Park in Chicago. “Walk” North on Racine. At what point does this look like an uncomfortable place to walk? At what point do the trees go away? At what point are you further than 1-1.5 miles from a grocery store? A park or playground? > Besides, I can flip that argument on its head, cities are limiting and put people in cocoons never having to leave their own neighborhood and see the world. You think city people can’t rent a car or get on public transit to the airport? The average American spends $5,000 a year on their cars’ total cost of ownership, that could buy you a week long car rental every month. Again, I’m advocating for reduction in car trips and not designing the lived environment for cars, I’m not saying that nobody should own a car or that city people will never own a car. I own a car myself. I’m just saying that we are putting cars above people on the priority list. > Have car, can travel. > That’s the nice thing about choice… What if you don’t have a car? What do you mean by “choice?” You don’t have a choice, you have to own a car! I think you’re mistaking me here: real choice would be being able to choose not to own a car while still living in the suburbs. Real choice would be someone in a big urban city like LA not having to own a car (but you pretty much have to in a city where public transit was destroyed and the city has been designed around driving for decades). I’m trying to say that living in the suburbs without being dependent on cars is actually is possible, but not in a poorly designed suburban environment that makes no consideration to other modes. You’re looking at this as me coming after you and your lifestyle. I’m not. I’m trying to make your patch of grass better! I’m trying to increase the amount of choice that suburban people have! I’m not asking you to make your house smaller or give up your yard.
- nec4b 3y ago
  >> At what point does this look like an uncomfortable place to walk? Compared to the real nature they look uncomfortable to walk. >> What if you don’t have a car? Then you get to live in a city and use every opportunity on HN to dunk on suburbs. >> I’m trying to increase the amount of choice that suburban people have! How nice of you. I guess there are no more problems to solve in the cities and now you have all the time to help the unfortunate suburbanites.
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mtalantikite 3y ago
> Besides, I can flip that argument on its head, cities are limiting and put people in cocoons never having to leave their own neighborhood and see the world. Have car, can travel. I don't know, I live in NYC and just walking down the street to the train I can hear half a dozen languages being spoken. I can head over to Jackson Heights and eat food from a couple dozen different cultures. And the money I don't spend on a car I can put towards leaving the country, which I generally do 2-3x per year.

dangus 3y ago

> Are you really going to claim that living in a city is part of the natural world? I’ll pick little example. Get on Google Maps. Put a pin down at Trebes Park in Chicago. “Walk” North on Racine. At what point does this look like an uncomfortable place to walk? At what point do the trees go away? At what point are you further than 1-1.5 miles from a grocery store? A park or playground? > Besides, I can flip that argument on its head, cities are limiting and put people in cocoons never having to leave their own neighborhood and see the world. You think city people can’t rent a car or get on public transit to the airport? The average American spends $5,000 a year on their cars’ total cost of ownership, that could buy you a week long car rental every month. Again, I’m advocating for reduction in car trips and not designing the lived environment for cars, I’m not saying that nobody should own a car or that city people will never own a car. I own a car myself. I’m just saying that we are putting cars above people on the priority list. > Have car, can travel. > That’s the nice thing about choice… What if you don’t have a car? What do you mean by “choice?” You don’t have a choice, you have to own a car! I think you’re mistaking me here: real choice would be being able to choose not to own a car while still living in the suburbs. Real choice would be someone in a big urban city like LA not having to own a car (but you pretty much have to in a city where public transit was destroyed and the city has been designed around driving for decades). I’m trying to say that living in the suburbs without being dependent on cars is actually is possible, but not in a poorly designed suburban environment that makes no consideration to other modes. You’re looking at this as me coming after you and your lifestyle. I’m not. I’m trying to make your patch of grass better! I’m trying to increase the amount of choice that suburban people have! I’m not asking you to make your house smaller or give up your yard.

nec4b 3y ago
>> At what point does this look like an uncomfortable place to walk? Compared to the real nature they look uncomfortable to walk. >> What if you don’t have a car? Then you get to live in a city and use every opportunity on HN to dunk on suburbs. >> I’m trying to increase the amount of choice that suburban people have! How nice of you. I guess there are no more problems to solve in the cities and now you have all the time to help the unfortunate suburbanites.
- deleted 3y ago
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mtalantikite 3y ago

> Besides, I can flip that argument on its head, cities are limiting and put people in cocoons never having to leave their own neighborhood and see the world. Have car, can travel. I don't know, I live in NYC and just walking down the street to the train I can hear half a dozen languages being spoken. I can head over to Jackson Heights and eat food from a couple dozen different cultures. And the money I don't spend on a car I can put towards leaving the country, which I generally do 2-3x per year.