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A hypothetical license that said "no forks allowed" would not be an open source license. If Redis used the LGPL we could still fork it, we'd just have to use th

A hypothetical license that said "no forks allowed" would not be an open source license. If Redis used the LGPL we could still fork it, we'd just have to use the LGPL for our fork; likewise anyone can fork Redict so long as they use the LGPL for their fork.* * Technically you do have more options than this with the LGPL but this is a layman's explanation.

endisneigh 2y ago
I did not say it would be an open source license. My point is simply that Redict takes something more permissive and makes it restrictive, which is true.
- deleted 2y ago
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- drewdevault 2y ago
  I don't think that's true. It's only true if freedom == freedom from obligation, which is a naive view of freedom. But if freedom == guarantees of rights, then Redict is more free. This is how freedoms actually work in practice: freedom of the press is guaranteed by restricting the government from censorship, workers rights are guaranteed by restricting the freedom of businesses to exploit them, etc. In practice all freedoms require someone to give something up. Even with permissive licenses, you are giving up the sole right to your IP and the sole to commercialize your software.
  - endisneigh 2y ago
    With all due respect I do not think that makes any sense. You’re creating this metaphor with the government, but this isn’t the government. In the end freedom is a spectrum and you are free to do more with MIT than LGPL. Even if someone forked MIT and made it closed source that does not in any way stop or restrict those who prefer the project pre-fork. Indeed, that is the very logic that has made Redict possible to begin with. This is the illustration of why MIT is maximally free. Suppose the EU said code must be closed source, and you must distribute encrypted binaries. In this hypothetical it wouldn’t be possible to use Redict at all. This is another example of why the MIT, and permissiveness in general, is superior. —- As an aside your freedom of the press example is yet another reason for permissiveness. The government isn’t permissive by default, which is why “freedom of the press” is even a thing.
    - drewdevault 2y ago
      Governments, businesses, they're all just institutions and I see no reason not to use them as illustrative examples. The MIT maximally enables exploitation; copyleft maximally enables freedom. From the point of a proprietary fork of a permissively licensed project onwards, users of the proprietary fork enjoy fewer freedoms than before. You are advocating for freedoms for the few (business owners making proprietary forks of free software for profit) at the expense of the freedom of many (everyone else). Redict would also be possible if Redis used a copyleft license. The space for Redict to exist is not afforded to us because of the use of a permissive license in some way that Redict denies to anyone else through the use of a copyleft license.
      - endisneigh 2y ago
        I really don’t understand you. Even if there was a closed source fork, users would still be free to use the open source one. There is no restriction or diminishing of options. In fact, now there are even more options and thus more freedom. In any case we can agree to disagree.
        drewdevault 2y ago
        I think you're missing the reciprocal nature of the arrangement here. Since you seem to assert that it's acceptable to release software under a proprietary license (and I agree with you, most of the time), you must believe that the authors of a work have a right to distribute it under whatever terms they like. So: is it appropriate for someone to say "I am willing to offer my labor to this collaborative project, and release the source code for free, and allow people to build from my work, under the condition that they extend the same rights back to everyone else"? It's much more generous than what proprietary software offers, after all. Why is copyleft subject to more scrutiny than proprietary software for you? You suggest that permissive licenses are better because they allow permissive derivatives of the software, which suggests that permissive derivatives are good. But copyleft derivatives are... not good? Copyleft offers more freedoms than proprietary software. Moreover, this line of reasoning completely disregards the social contract. Many people worked on, used, popularized Redis under the presumption that they were participating in a collaborative effort from which all participants would benefit, only -- surprise -- now the trademark holder has changed the terms so that only they benefit from a product of which, by objective measures, 80% was made by the community.

endisneigh 2y ago

I did not say it would be an open source license. My point is simply that Redict takes something more permissive and makes it restrictive, which is true.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
drewdevault 2y ago
I don't think that's true. It's only true if freedom == freedom from obligation, which is a naive view of freedom. But if freedom == guarantees of rights, then Redict is more free. This is how freedoms actually work in practice: freedom of the press is guaranteed by restricting the government from censorship, workers rights are guaranteed by restricting the freedom of businesses to exploit them, etc. In practice all freedoms require someone to give something up. Even with permissive licenses, you are giving up the sole right to your IP and the sole to commercialize your software.
- endisneigh 2y ago
  With all due respect I do not think that makes any sense. You’re creating this metaphor with the government, but this isn’t the government. In the end freedom is a spectrum and you are free to do more with MIT than LGPL. Even if someone forked MIT and made it closed source that does not in any way stop or restrict those who prefer the project pre-fork. Indeed, that is the very logic that has made Redict possible to begin with. This is the illustration of why MIT is maximally free. Suppose the EU said code must be closed source, and you must distribute encrypted binaries. In this hypothetical it wouldn’t be possible to use Redict at all. This is another example of why the MIT, and permissiveness in general, is superior. —- As an aside your freedom of the press example is yet another reason for permissiveness. The government isn’t permissive by default, which is why “freedom of the press” is even a thing.
  - drewdevault 2y ago
    Governments, businesses, they're all just institutions and I see no reason not to use them as illustrative examples. The MIT maximally enables exploitation; copyleft maximally enables freedom. From the point of a proprietary fork of a permissively licensed project onwards, users of the proprietary fork enjoy fewer freedoms than before. You are advocating for freedoms for the few (business owners making proprietary forks of free software for profit) at the expense of the freedom of many (everyone else). Redict would also be possible if Redis used a copyleft license. The space for Redict to exist is not afforded to us because of the use of a permissive license in some way that Redict denies to anyone else through the use of a copyleft license.
    - endisneigh 2y ago
      I really don’t understand you. Even if there was a closed source fork, users would still be free to use the open source one. There is no restriction or diminishing of options. In fact, now there are even more options and thus more freedom. In any case we can agree to disagree.
      - drewdevault 2y ago
        I think you're missing the reciprocal nature of the arrangement here. Since you seem to assert that it's acceptable to release software under a proprietary license (and I agree with you, most of the time), you must believe that the authors of a work have a right to distribute it under whatever terms they like. So: is it appropriate for someone to say "I am willing to offer my labor to this collaborative project, and release the source code for free, and allow people to build from my work, under the condition that they extend the same rights back to everyone else"? It's much more generous than what proprietary software offers, after all. Why is copyleft subject to more scrutiny than proprietary software for you? You suggest that permissive licenses are better because they allow permissive derivatives of the software, which suggests that permissive derivatives are good. But copyleft derivatives are... not good? Copyleft offers more freedoms than proprietary software. Moreover, this line of reasoning completely disregards the social contract. Many people worked on, used, popularized Redis under the presumption that they were participating in a collaborative effort from which all participants would benefit, only -- surprise -- now the trademark holder has changed the terms so that only they benefit from a product of which, by objective measures, 80% was made by the community.