3 ms·

Which of those points do you disagree with? Because they all seem reasonable and true to me.

by Thiez 3y ago

tguvot 3y ago
[flagged]
- Thiez 3y ago
  From the outside it sure looks like AIPAC has a lot of influence and US politicians by and large are absurdly committed to supporting Israel no matter how flagrantly it violates international law and human rights. You can try to dismiss this observation by joking about a secret cabal of evil Jews (maybe they can be lizards as well!) but that doesn't change the reality that the USA seems to be grovelling at the feet of Bibi as if Israel is giving it free billions each year instead of the other way round.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    aipac is rather minor donor/lobbyist in usa. you should look up statistics. those billions are peanuts in israeli budget. majority of population in israel in favor of stopping taking it. it works actually as lever that usa is using, so it actually beneficial to usa (and all the money going back to it anyway) usa doesn't grovel at feet of bibi. it just usa has more guts than other countries to support israel.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    “the Jewish lobby” is widely—and correctly so—regarded as an anti-Semitic trope. Anyone should refrain from using it. Even Albanese regrets having used these words a decade ago, and has apologized for doing so. If you want to talk about AIPAC and similar groups you should use the more accurate term Pro Israel lobby, which Albanese has indeed used since. In fact I would argue there is nothing Pro Jewish about AIPAC. AIPAC doesn't really care about American Jews. They only care about furthering Israel’s war machine and that Israel’s human rights violations continues to go unpunished. Even when this policy harms American Jews. Also the trope that Israel controls the USA is also both untrue and anti-Semitic. The USA is perfectly capable of aligning them selfs with a criminal foreign governments on their own if it somehow serves their interest. They did so with Apartheid South Africa, they do so with Saudi Arabian, and there was no “Jewish Lobby” making them do so. The truth is that Israel is an antagonistic country in the Middle East, and it serves the interest of the USA to keep this region unstable. You don't need an evil race of people to keep colonialism alive, you just need plain old capitalists.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      I think this is mostly very well said! Thanks for adding this clarity to the thread. I think reasonable people can go back and forth on the US's interest in destabilizing the Levant and the extent to which Israel (outside of the West Bank and Gaza) represents "colonialism". I think a reasonable person could argue that literally every US administration since Ronald Reagan's would have jumped at the opportunity to settle a 2-state solution that gave Palestine self-determination, a seaport, etc. (My expectation is that we don't agree on this point, which is totally fine. Certainly, we agree about AIPAC.)

Which of those points do you disagree with? Because they all seem reasonable and true to me.

by Thiez 3y ago

Which of those points do you disagree with? Because they all seem reasonable and true to me.

tguvot 3y ago

[flagged]

Thiez 3y ago
From the outside it sure looks like AIPAC has a lot of influence and US politicians by and large are absurdly committed to supporting Israel no matter how flagrantly it violates international law and human rights. You can try to dismiss this observation by joking about a secret cabal of evil Jews (maybe they can be lizards as well!) but that doesn't change the reality that the USA seems to be grovelling at the feet of Bibi as if Israel is giving it free billions each year instead of the other way round.
- tguvot 3y ago
  aipac is rather minor donor/lobbyist in usa. you should look up statistics. those billions are peanuts in israeli budget. majority of population in israel in favor of stopping taking it. it works actually as lever that usa is using, so it actually beneficial to usa (and all the money going back to it anyway) usa doesn't grovel at feet of bibi. it just usa has more guts than other countries to support israel.
- runarberg 3y ago
  “the Jewish lobby” is widely—and correctly so—regarded as an anti-Semitic trope. Anyone should refrain from using it. Even Albanese regrets having used these words a decade ago, and has apologized for doing so. If you want to talk about AIPAC and similar groups you should use the more accurate term Pro Israel lobby, which Albanese has indeed used since. In fact I would argue there is nothing Pro Jewish about AIPAC. AIPAC doesn't really care about American Jews. They only care about furthering Israel’s war machine and that Israel’s human rights violations continues to go unpunished. Even when this policy harms American Jews. Also the trope that Israel controls the USA is also both untrue and anti-Semitic. The USA is perfectly capable of aligning them selfs with a criminal foreign governments on their own if it somehow serves their interest. They did so with Apartheid South Africa, they do so with Saudi Arabian, and there was no “Jewish Lobby” making them do so. The truth is that Israel is an antagonistic country in the Middle East, and it serves the interest of the USA to keep this region unstable. You don't need an evil race of people to keep colonialism alive, you just need plain old capitalists.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I think this is mostly very well said! Thanks for adding this clarity to the thread. I think reasonable people can go back and forth on the US's interest in destabilizing the Levant and the extent to which Israel (outside of the West Bank and Gaza) represents "colonialism". I think a reasonable person could argue that literally every US administration since Ronald Reagan's would have jumped at the opportunity to settle a 2-state solution that gave Palestine self-determination, a seaport, etc. (My expectation is that we don't agree on this point, which is totally fine. Certainly, we agree about AIPAC.)