3 ms·

I do now wonder if systemd itself is part of a similar long game by someone. It is part of everything. One compromise there and it is game over. It has all the

I do now wonder if systemd itself is part of a similar long game by someone. It is part of everything. One compromise there and it is game over. It has all the signs: - Replaces old perfectly working systems? Check - Large and inscrutable? Check - Touches a lot of things an init system has no business touching? Check - Pushed in rather suddenly, in a coordinated fashion, and against much reasonable opposition? Check

andrewshadura 3y ago
Same old arguments debunked many times already. 1. Old systems it replaced were difficult to use and maintain. 2. It is in fact modular and the code is actually easy to understand. When I ran into a bug, I managed to find and fix it. 3. Systemd itself replaces the init and service management (initscripts etc), that's quite in the scope. Other bits and pieces like timers and resource management, are also in the scope. Other things like network management, are separate things that are only developed under the umbrella of the systemd project. 4. Systemd was not pushed suddenly, it was many years in brewing, and it became gradually adopted when it was actually ready for production use.
- swader999 3y ago
  Real time sophisticated astro turfing system in place to stifle any criticism - Check. Just kidding, I think the defense given holds up.
npteljes 3y ago
>One compromise there and it is game over. Consider that every agency like the NSA, and private groups like the NSO Group (authors of the Pegasus spyware) already sit on a pile of unpatched vulnerabilities, for various systems. If one vuln in systemd is game over, then the game is already over. And if what we currently experience is the game over state, then it's manageable.
- fl0ki 3y ago
  It looks manageable to most of us because we don't know who was targeted and what would have happened if they weren't. We don't even know what whistleblowers were caught before they could publish their information, and we don't know what information that would have been. Imagine if nobody ever leaked what Edward Snowden did. Imagine that something similarly important, anywhere in the world, has not been leaked because of successfully exploited vulnerabilities.
  - npteljes 3y ago
    I'd rather have a safer world for the software, and for the people especially. What I wanted to reflect on is just OP's assertion that if bad thing X happens, it's game over. It's not, I think, because if it would, then it were game over long ago. So now, if we find a vulnerability in systemd, we'll just fix it and put it with the rest of the fire.

andrewshadura 3y ago

Same old arguments debunked many times already. 1. Old systems it replaced were difficult to use and maintain. 2. It is in fact modular and the code is actually easy to understand. When I ran into a bug, I managed to find and fix it. 3. Systemd itself replaces the init and service management (initscripts etc), that's quite in the scope. Other bits and pieces like timers and resource management, are also in the scope. Other things like network management, are separate things that are only developed under the umbrella of the systemd project. 4. Systemd was not pushed suddenly, it was many years in brewing, and it became gradually adopted when it was actually ready for production use.

swader999 3y ago
Real time sophisticated astro turfing system in place to stifle any criticism - Check. Just kidding, I think the defense given holds up.

npteljes 3y ago

>One compromise there and it is game over. Consider that every agency like the NSA, and private groups like the NSO Group (authors of the Pegasus spyware) already sit on a pile of unpatched vulnerabilities, for various systems. If one vuln in systemd is game over, then the game is already over. And if what we currently experience is the game over state, then it's manageable.

fl0ki 3y ago
It looks manageable to most of us because we don't know who was targeted and what would have happened if they weren't. We don't even know what whistleblowers were caught before they could publish their information, and we don't know what information that would have been. Imagine if nobody ever leaked what Edward Snowden did. Imagine that something similarly important, anywhere in the world, has not been leaked because of successfully exploited vulnerabilities.
- npteljes 3y ago
  I'd rather have a safer world for the software, and for the people especially. What I wanted to reflect on is just OP's assertion that if bad thing X happens, it's game over. It's not, I think, because if it would, then it were game over long ago. So now, if we find a vulnerability in systemd, we'll just fix it and put it with the rest of the fire.