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I really wish someone could explain this to me. My local observations are the same as parent. I have no unemployed, graduated friends, in fact, I have still-in-

I really wish someone could explain this to me. My local observations are the same as parent. I have no unemployed, graduated friends, in fact, I have still-in-school but employed friends. They're all making great salaries and living in fun cities like San Fran, New York, and Boston. I practically have a job offer at a firm in New Tork and I'm a year from graduating and I've a decent shot at graduate programs too. I must be doing something fundamentally different, or there's some systemic bias in my favor. I am lower middle class, white, male, nerd, not particularly socially apt, average university, ~100k loans, American, CS and physics maajor, living in the northeast.

spacemanaki 14y ago
> I really wish someone could explain this to me. I'll try, although I don't have any special insights, I don't think it's mysterious. From goodside's comment: "I majored in CS." From yours: "CS and physics maajor". I probably don't have to tell you that there's tremendous demand for so-called STEM majors. I don't know about your friends' majors, but these are really both "isolated, non-representative examples". I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy, etc, and have little or no concrete idea of how to apply this degree in the real world. Part of it is also because there is little support for developing skills outside your narrow major in many colleges and universities, and there's this drift between what many students expect from school (prepare to get a job) and what the schools deliver, which is more abstract. Plus many new grads don't know much more about how to go about finding a job than just pumping out resumes, because that's what they're told to do by (some) "career centers" and counselors on campus.
- zeefo08 14y ago
  >I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy This. I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants. I feel bad for my friend with an English degree stuck working at Barnes and Noble but I also understand the flipside, which is if you're a Philosophy major right out of college with few or no internships, what precisely _are_ you qualified for? I know I won the lottery with a CS degree in this economy (god how I hate that phrase) but of what real world use is a philosophy degree?
  - spacemanaki 14y ago
    I don't know for sure what real world use a Philosophy degree provides, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of people working where I am now who majored in Philosophy, and there are definitely a few english majors. They are working as product managers, programmers, and operations/sys admin roles. My point was that, if you're going to indulge yourself by spending 4 years studying something like Philosophy or english, be realistic and realize that there are few places out there ready to hand you a cushy job "in your field" just because you have the degree. We've (relatively privileged Americans) gotten ourselves into a bit of trouble by telling kids that they can grow up to be whatever they want and that they should follow their dreams, along with sending most of the off to universities without a clue as to what they will study there or do when they finish. FWIW I have almost no idea what I'm talking about. I haven't seen studies about who among my cohort of "millenials" has been affected most by long term unemployment, etc, is it really the newly minted philosophy majors? Or are these stories just gobbled up by the press and the sense that there are hordes of humanities grads working as waiters and waitresses somewhat of a myth? Likely the real story is something in the middle and more complicated.
    - zeefo08 14y ago
      I think this guys hits it on the mark a bit: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3991574 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3991574 Still, I pursued my degree with a future career in mind. I don't get the English majors. "I like books" doesn't ring of career prospects.
    - danking00 14y ago
      I chose to major in CS partly because of great job prospects. Had that not been the case I might have been a Physics and Philosophy major. My friends probably are an unusual sample of CS and Physics majors. However, they made choices which put them into this position. There might be some systemic privilege on their part, but they also helped themselves. Your last paragraph resonates with me. I cannot truly believe that there's a huge glut of people with not very practical majors. How could we let this happen? Where were those folks parents, teachers, and friends? Why didn't they point out that success is slim? If they did, why did this glut of individuals stubbornly pursue their desires? What I'm trying to not say is that this individual sounds a bit silver-spooned. If I couldn't get a job in my chosen field, I'd move on. Pop "Fortunate Son" in the tape player and head to wherever the jobs are. There's apparently an oil boom in North Dakota. There's always need for English teachers around the world. That sounds like an adventure. I don't want to come across as incompassionate. Society ought to direct people towards success and help them when they're down, but I can't help but feel this guy is hurting himself. We don't have all the data, I hope he's an outlier.
JonnieCache 14y ago
>not particularly socially apt I'd put money on your being a lot more socially apt (in the areas important for this stuff) than you think you are, as compared to the rest of the population. "socially apt" is just another word for "common sense" or "not being a self-hindering idiot" in a lot of circumstances. It doesn't have to mean being a slick sunglasses-at-night bastard.
Wilya 14y ago
CS field in America is about as easy as it gets, in terms of finding a job. Demand is absurdly high. That's not the case for every field. That's not even true for CS, as soon as you get out of the country. The column is about someone in (apparently) Canada, who doesn't seem like he's in tech.
- _delirium 14y ago
  Even in CS in the US it varies a lot by specialty and region. I know some sysadmins in the Midwest who've been having trouble finding work lately. It seems that even if you can do other things, having an N-year CV of doing Unix sysadmin work (and an age >M, for some N,M) puts you into a ghetto which doesn't currently have a lot of jobs. Especially true if you don't have a degree. CS has a reputation of caring less about degrees than many other fields, but the combination of a sysadmin CV and no degree seems to raise the odds that you'll get typecast as "computer janitor".
  - base698 14y ago
    EC2, Google Apps for business come immediately to mind :)
- danking00 14y ago
  Agreed, which was part of my motivation for entering the field. Also, a reason why I've avoided the sorts of relationships which will tie me to one geographic area. On the subject of solutions, has our society been incredibly dishonest with this person? Why didn't his parents, teachers, or friends tip him off to the frustrating future of the field he is in? Is this a systemic problem, or is he an outlier? Where have we failed him? I wish I had more data on this guy and people like him.

spacemanaki 14y ago

> I really wish someone could explain this to me. I'll try, although I don't have any special insights, I don't think it's mysterious. From goodside's comment: "I majored in CS." From yours: "CS and physics maajor". I probably don't have to tell you that there's tremendous demand for so-called STEM majors. I don't know about your friends' majors, but these are really both "isolated, non-representative examples". I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy, etc, and have little or no concrete idea of how to apply this degree in the real world. Part of it is also because there is little support for developing skills outside your narrow major in many colleges and universities, and there's this drift between what many students expect from school (prepare to get a job) and what the schools deliver, which is more abstract. Plus many new grads don't know much more about how to go about finding a job than just pumping out resumes, because that's what they're told to do by (some) "career centers" and counselors on campus.

zeefo08 14y ago
>I think there are plenty of people going through what this 29-yo is going through, and part of that might be because they have degrees in things like English, Art history, Philosophy This. I have friends who majored in the humanities and are now working retail and restaurants. I feel bad for my friend with an English degree stuck working at Barnes and Noble but I also understand the flipside, which is if you're a Philosophy major right out of college with few or no internships, what precisely _are_ you qualified for? I know I won the lottery with a CS degree in this economy (god how I hate that phrase) but of what real world use is a philosophy degree?
- spacemanaki 14y ago
  I don't know for sure what real world use a Philosophy degree provides, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple of people working where I am now who majored in Philosophy, and there are definitely a few english majors. They are working as product managers, programmers, and operations/sys admin roles. My point was that, if you're going to indulge yourself by spending 4 years studying something like Philosophy or english, be realistic and realize that there are few places out there ready to hand you a cushy job "in your field" just because you have the degree. We've (relatively privileged Americans) gotten ourselves into a bit of trouble by telling kids that they can grow up to be whatever they want and that they should follow their dreams, along with sending most of the off to universities without a clue as to what they will study there or do when they finish. FWIW I have almost no idea what I'm talking about. I haven't seen studies about who among my cohort of "millenials" has been affected most by long term unemployment, etc, is it really the newly minted philosophy majors? Or are these stories just gobbled up by the press and the sense that there are hordes of humanities grads working as waiters and waitresses somewhat of a myth? Likely the real story is something in the middle and more complicated.
  - zeefo08 14y ago
    I think this guys hits it on the mark a bit: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3991574 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3991574 Still, I pursued my degree with a future career in mind. I don't get the English majors. "I like books" doesn't ring of career prospects.
  - danking00 14y ago
    I chose to major in CS partly because of great job prospects. Had that not been the case I might have been a Physics and Philosophy major. My friends probably are an unusual sample of CS and Physics majors. However, they made choices which put them into this position. There might be some systemic privilege on their part, but they also helped themselves. Your last paragraph resonates with me. I cannot truly believe that there's a huge glut of people with not very practical majors. How could we let this happen? Where were those folks parents, teachers, and friends? Why didn't they point out that success is slim? If they did, why did this glut of individuals stubbornly pursue their desires? What I'm trying to not say is that this individual sounds a bit silver-spooned. If I couldn't get a job in my chosen field, I'd move on. Pop "Fortunate Son" in the tape player and head to wherever the jobs are. There's apparently an oil boom in North Dakota. There's always need for English teachers around the world. That sounds like an adventure. I don't want to come across as incompassionate. Society ought to direct people towards success and help them when they're down, but I can't help but feel this guy is hurting himself. We don't have all the data, I hope he's an outlier.

JonnieCache 14y ago

>not particularly socially apt I'd put money on your being a lot more socially apt (in the areas important for this stuff) than you think you are, as compared to the rest of the population. "socially apt" is just another word for "common sense" or "not being a self-hindering idiot" in a lot of circumstances. It doesn't have to mean being a slick sunglasses-at-night bastard.

Wilya 14y ago

CS field in America is about as easy as it gets, in terms of finding a job. Demand is absurdly high. That's not the case for every field. That's not even true for CS, as soon as you get out of the country. The column is about someone in (apparently) Canada, who doesn't seem like he's in tech.

_delirium 14y ago
Even in CS in the US it varies a lot by specialty and region. I know some sysadmins in the Midwest who've been having trouble finding work lately. It seems that even if you can do other things, having an N-year CV of doing Unix sysadmin work (and an age >M, for some N,M) puts you into a ghetto which doesn't currently have a lot of jobs. Especially true if you don't have a degree. CS has a reputation of caring less about degrees than many other fields, but the combination of a sysadmin CV and no degree seems to raise the odds that you'll get typecast as "computer janitor".
- base698 14y ago
  EC2, Google Apps for business come immediately to mind :)
danking00 14y ago
Agreed, which was part of my motivation for entering the field. Also, a reason why I've avoided the sorts of relationships which will tie me to one geographic area. On the subject of solutions, has our society been incredibly dishonest with this person? Why didn't his parents, teachers, or friends tip him off to the frustrating future of the field he is in? Is this a systemic problem, or is he an outlier? Where have we failed him? I wish I had more data on this guy and people like him.