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If you actually use the batttery for daily driving, smaller battery means you have many more battery cycles for a given distance, meaning the battery degrades f

by audunw 3y ago

If you actually use the batttery for daily driving, smaller battery means you have many more battery cycles for a given distance, meaning the battery degrades faster. I’ve been in favour of EVs or plugins with small batteries myself. But in the long term I’m wondering if it’s a bad idea if the battery doesn’t last as long as the car. Replacing them is very expensive. Maybe with it’s more responsible with modern LFP battery packs. They should handle many charging cycles fairly well

dredmorbius 3y ago
Wouldn't the faster degradation be offset by the fact that the battery is smaller, and hence cheaper, to replace? That leaves the fixed cost of labour for the replacement, but if the battery is designed as a planned-replacement item, that can be reduced to a minimum. It's a lot easier to swap out a few cells or battery modules than a full frame-integrated battery. And Tesla demonstrated doing the latter in under 60 seconds. Again, the upside is not having a huge, and for once a correct usage of the term, massive battery pack you're lugging with you, accelerating, braking, and tire-wearing all the time.
- Gud 3y ago
  Why would it be so much easier to replace a smaller, but still heavy battery? Seems to me you would need more or less the same tooling. After all, you’re not replacing either by hand.
  - leereeves 3y ago
    At least for a Prius, it can be done by hand, even DIY. The battery only weighs about 100lb and doesn't require any special tools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHaYXBFnJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHaYXBFnJo OTOH, replacing the Rav4 hybrid's battery is apparently much more difficult and I couldn't find anyone doing that DIY.
  - hajile 3y ago
    Most of the replacement cost is the battery itself and you're still only going to do that maybe 1-2 times over the lifespan of the vehicle
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Tesla batteries are so large and massive (~ 0.5 -- 1 tonne) that they're integrated into the frame as the entire floor of the automobile. This, incidentally, makes for a very low centre of gravity and high stability of the vehicle, though also a high kerb weight. Replacement is possible, and quickly, though requiring specialised equipment. On hybrid petrol-battery EVs, the cells are included as modules, typically located under the rear seats (where the fuel tank of a conventional petroleum-fueled passenger car would be), which can be slid out in a matter of minutes as a DIY proccedure. The batteries themselves weigh about 100 kilos and are rated for 100k -- 150k miles, which makes audunw's argument specious. Toyota hybrid Camry DIY battery replacement: <https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=nlvibjNUAXQ https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=nlvibjNUAXQ> Toyota hybrid Prius DIY battery replacement: <https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=FPXY0AqHHzI https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=FPXY0AqHHzI> Toyota hybrid Camry battery warranty 10 year/150k miles: <https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-extends-battery-warranty-for-model-year-2020-hybrid-plug-in-and-fuel-cell-electric-vehicles/ https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-extends-battery-warranty...>
dredmorbius 3y ago
FYI, Toyota warranties its 2020 hybrid batteries for 10 years / 150k miles, which largely moots your hypothetical. As I've noted downstream, replacement takes about 15 minutes and is possibly as a DIY: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39921047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39921047>

by audunw 3y ago

dredmorbius 3y ago

Wouldn't the faster degradation be offset by the fact that the battery is smaller, and hence cheaper, to replace? That leaves the fixed cost of labour for the replacement, but if the battery is designed as a planned-replacement item, that can be reduced to a minimum. It's a lot easier to swap out a few cells or battery modules than a full frame-integrated battery. And Tesla demonstrated doing the latter in under 60 seconds. Again, the upside is not having a huge, and for once a correct usage of the term, massive battery pack you're lugging with you, accelerating, braking, and tire-wearing all the time.

Gud 3y ago
Why would it be so much easier to replace a smaller, but still heavy battery? Seems to me you would need more or less the same tooling. After all, you’re not replacing either by hand.
- leereeves 3y ago
  At least for a Prius, it can be done by hand, even DIY. The battery only weighs about 100lb and doesn't require any special tools. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHaYXBFnJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHaYXBFnJo OTOH, replacing the Rav4 hybrid's battery is apparently much more difficult and I couldn't find anyone doing that DIY.
- hajile 3y ago
  Most of the replacement cost is the battery itself and you're still only going to do that maybe 1-2 times over the lifespan of the vehicle
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  Tesla batteries are so large and massive (~ 0.5 -- 1 tonne) that they're integrated into the frame as the entire floor of the automobile. This, incidentally, makes for a very low centre of gravity and high stability of the vehicle, though also a high kerb weight. Replacement is possible, and quickly, though requiring specialised equipment. On hybrid petrol-battery EVs, the cells are included as modules, typically located under the rear seats (where the fuel tank of a conventional petroleum-fueled passenger car would be), which can be slid out in a matter of minutes as a DIY proccedure. The batteries themselves weigh about 100 kilos and are rated for 100k -- 150k miles, which makes audunw's argument specious. Toyota hybrid Camry DIY battery replacement: <https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=nlvibjNUAXQ https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=nlvibjNUAXQ> Toyota hybrid Prius DIY battery replacement: <https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=FPXY0AqHHzI https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=FPXY0AqHHzI> Toyota hybrid Camry battery warranty 10 year/150k miles: <https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-extends-battery-warranty-for-model-year-2020-hybrid-plug-in-and-fuel-cell-electric-vehicles/ https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-extends-battery-warranty...>

dredmorbius 3y ago

FYI, Toyota warranties its 2020 hybrid batteries for 10 years / 150k miles, which largely moots your hypothetical. As I've noted downstream, replacement takes about 15 minutes and is possibly as a DIY: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39921047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39921047>