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I think there is an investment aspect to this. Without a certainty that demand will increase in a significant way the power grid wont see investment. By forcing

I think there is an investment aspect to this. Without a certainty that demand will increase in a significant way the power grid wont see investment. By forcing EVs, power companies know that demand will go up in the future enabling easier investment decisions

spxneo 3y ago
how does this help most americans who cant afford ev? this is like "let them eat cake"
- appplication 3y ago
  The demand for cheap electric vehicles will exist. They will be worse, and have less features, poorer construction, etc. but that’s the nature of budget stuff. Not everybody needs 300 mile range. Most folks can get most of their trips done with just a couple dozen miles of range. It sucks, but we don’t have a choice to not act against climate change. Some people are going to get fucked in some ways, but those same people will be fucked in different ways if we don’t do anything or move too slowly.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    >"Some people are going to get fucked in some ways, but those same people will be fucked in different ways if we don’t do anything or move too slowly." If fucking up people starts with those at the top I am all for it. Otherwise GFY
    - spxneo 3y ago
      its that e/acc cargo cult bs
      - appplication 3y ago
        Not e/acc, just old fashioned environmental advocacy.
  - prerok 3y ago
    I agree that we have to reduce the carbon emissions. I am wondering, though, if we started at the right place. More electrical demands will further cause building new power plants, but none of them come without another, different impact. Sacrificing fields for solar power, flooding valleys for hydro, cutting trees for better wind, etc. I have seen it done and it makes little sense. Maybe these "local" changes will have other impacts we do not know about. On the other hand, decreasing meat consumption might also help significantly but there have only been half-hearted attempts at it. Farmers and people will hear none of it.
- presentation 3y ago
  Chinese companies make cheap EVs, hopefully other countries can figure out how to make it happen.
  - porkbeer 3y ago
    They are cheap because they have no standards. Note they are not selling them in most of usa and europe that require safety testing.
    - presentation 3y ago
      I thought they’re not telling them in the USA because the USA effectively are blocking them from being sold via trade barriers and tariffs [1], meanwhile EU is buying a ton of EVs from China [2] and planning to block them with tariffs as the US did [3]. So it doesn’t sound like it’s a quality issue, sounds like that’s just your outdated opinion of Chinese manufacturing. If the western world wants to make the argument that they can do it better, then they need to do it better. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-18/chinese-ev-affordability-frightens-ford-gm-us-automakers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-18/chinese-e... [2] https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/ https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-ev... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2024/03/08/if-europe-penalizes-chinas-ev-imports-unintended-consequences-loom/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2024/03/08/if-europe...
- sgc 3y ago
  Many EVs are already cheaper than many ICE cars. They will only get cheaper and ICE cars will be more expensive to produce in 3 years. No surprise since ICE cars are quite complex. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/evs-will-be-cheaper-produce-than-gas-powered-vehicles-by-2027-gartner-says-2024-03-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/evs-wi...
  - spxneo 3y ago
    how will a 2023 tesla become cheaper than a 1991 honda civic?
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      A 1991 Honda civic isn’t going to be outlawed.
    - thecopy 3y ago
      It wont. I dont understand your point. Then buy a 1991 honda civic.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Many EVs are already cheaper than many ICE cars. Can you please post a list of these many EVs that are cheaper than ICE cars? According to this article the cheapest EV is the Chevy Bolt at 26.5K. So if that is true, the list of EVs cheaper than ICE is null. https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/ https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-elect...
    - sgc 3y ago
      You misread. Many EVs are cheaper than many ICE cars means there is already a fair amount of overlap in price points, and more expensive ICE cars are already more expensive than base EVs. And then I posted a source indicating that the rapidly dropping prices of EVs means they will cost less to produce than ICE cars in a couple years, meaning that it is reasonable to think they will push out ever more of the lower end of the ICE market.
- rgbrenner 3y ago
  Have you checked prices recently? EVs are $30k brand new. You can find 2 year old Model 3s for $17k. EVs like the Leaf from 2015/2016 are below $10k. The 8 year old equivalent in 2035 hasn't even been released yet. Battery costs are continuing to decrease even today. And the deadline isn't for another 11 years.
  - antonkochubey 3y ago
    > EVs like the Leaf from 2015/2016 are below $10k How soon will it need a $7000 battery replacement? It's a non-thermal managed battery, over here (mild climate with winters usually around 0C and summers around 20-25C) they're failing left and right after 5-7 years of active usage.
  - spxneo 3y ago
    37.9 million Americans live below the poverty line...you think they are buying a 30k car when most ppl are living paycheck to paycheck? like the lack of awareness of your own citizens in the comments is appalling. its no wonder trump is so popular with this crowd as much as I despise him.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      The older used vehicles they buy aren’t going to be banned.
      - nec4b 3y ago
        No. But demand for them will be much higher and the prices will adjust.
- dgoldstein0 3y ago
  I have a similar, though not quite the same, concern. I wonder if it would be better, instead of outright banning gas powered cars, to tax the emissions. If by some magic we could get 150mpg cars, that could be competitive with a relatively green grid. Or alternatively if mileage can't go up but it's possible to recapture some of the carbon before it leaves the tailpipe - that could also cut down the emissions, achieving the same climate goal. That said challenges with any such regime: - it's probably easier to tax the gas directly than the released emissions - it's definitely a problem to be raising the cost of living for lower-income Americans, who already don't have wiggle room in their budgets It's pretty likely that EVs will get cheaper over time, as production of them reaches better economies of scale which get optimized more with each new generation. How much cheaper of course is the big open question that remains to be seen, but some European countries have already seen mass adoption as the EVs get cheaper than ICE vehicles (Norway in particular, via a subsidy: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23939076/norway-electric-vehicle-cars-evs-tesla-oslo https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23939076/norway-electric-...). That said it's not yet the case that EVs can be made cheaper without policies shifting some of the cost. One partial answer may be extending cheap credit for buying EVs, as EVs should have cheaper maintenance in the long run and can have cheaper operating costs (though... that depends on the local price of energy, which we don't seem to be great about keeping under control) so it appears the bigger problem with EVs is upfront cost rather than total cost of ownership - a problem better credit could smooth over. Of course this then gets tied up with the problems of interest rates. <nervously glances at the Fed>

spxneo 3y ago

how does this help most americans who cant afford ev? this is like "let them eat cake"

appplication 3y ago
The demand for cheap electric vehicles will exist. They will be worse, and have less features, poorer construction, etc. but that’s the nature of budget stuff. Not everybody needs 300 mile range. Most folks can get most of their trips done with just a couple dozen miles of range. It sucks, but we don’t have a choice to not act against climate change. Some people are going to get fucked in some ways, but those same people will be fucked in different ways if we don’t do anything or move too slowly.
- FpUser 3y ago
  >"Some people are going to get fucked in some ways, but those same people will be fucked in different ways if we don’t do anything or move too slowly." If fucking up people starts with those at the top I am all for it. Otherwise GFY
  - spxneo 3y ago
    its that e/acc cargo cult bs
    - appplication 3y ago
      Not e/acc, just old fashioned environmental advocacy.
- prerok 3y ago
  I agree that we have to reduce the carbon emissions. I am wondering, though, if we started at the right place. More electrical demands will further cause building new power plants, but none of them come without another, different impact. Sacrificing fields for solar power, flooding valleys for hydro, cutting trees for better wind, etc. I have seen it done and it makes little sense. Maybe these "local" changes will have other impacts we do not know about. On the other hand, decreasing meat consumption might also help significantly but there have only been half-hearted attempts at it. Farmers and people will hear none of it.
presentation 3y ago
Chinese companies make cheap EVs, hopefully other countries can figure out how to make it happen.
- porkbeer 3y ago
  They are cheap because they have no standards. Note they are not selling them in most of usa and europe that require safety testing.
  - presentation 3y ago
    I thought they’re not telling them in the USA because the USA effectively are blocking them from being sold via trade barriers and tariffs [1], meanwhile EU is buying a ton of EVs from China [2] and planning to block them with tariffs as the US did [3]. So it doesn’t sound like it’s a quality issue, sounds like that’s just your outdated opinion of Chinese manufacturing. If the western world wants to make the argument that they can do it better, then they need to do it better. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-18/chinese-ev-affordability-frightens-ford-gm-us-automakers https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-18/chinese-e... [2] https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-evs-sold-in-europe-this-year-will-be-made-in-china-analysis/ https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/one-in-four-ev... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2024/03/08/if-europe-penalizes-chinas-ev-imports-unintended-consequences-loom/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2024/03/08/if-europe...
sgc 3y ago
Many EVs are already cheaper than many ICE cars. They will only get cheaper and ICE cars will be more expensive to produce in 3 years. No surprise since ICE cars are quite complex. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/evs-will-be-cheaper-produce-than-gas-powered-vehicles-by-2027-gartner-says-2024-03-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/evs-wi...
- spxneo 3y ago
  how will a 2023 tesla become cheaper than a 1991 honda civic?
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    A 1991 Honda civic isn’t going to be outlawed.
  - thecopy 3y ago
    It wont. I dont understand your point. Then buy a 1991 honda civic.
- jjav 3y ago
  > Many EVs are already cheaper than many ICE cars. Can you please post a list of these many EVs that are cheaper than ICE cars? According to this article the cheapest EV is the Chevy Bolt at 26.5K. So if that is true, the list of EVs cheaper than ICE is null. https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/ https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-elect...
  - sgc 3y ago
    You misread. Many EVs are cheaper than many ICE cars means there is already a fair amount of overlap in price points, and more expensive ICE cars are already more expensive than base EVs. And then I posted a source indicating that the rapidly dropping prices of EVs means they will cost less to produce than ICE cars in a couple years, meaning that it is reasonable to think they will push out ever more of the lower end of the ICE market.
rgbrenner 3y ago
Have you checked prices recently? EVs are $30k brand new. You can find 2 year old Model 3s for $17k. EVs like the Leaf from 2015/2016 are below $10k. The 8 year old equivalent in 2035 hasn't even been released yet. Battery costs are continuing to decrease even today. And the deadline isn't for another 11 years.
- antonkochubey 3y ago
  > EVs like the Leaf from 2015/2016 are below $10k How soon will it need a $7000 battery replacement? It's a non-thermal managed battery, over here (mild climate with winters usually around 0C and summers around 20-25C) they're failing left and right after 5-7 years of active usage.
- spxneo 3y ago
  37.9 million Americans live below the poverty line...you think they are buying a 30k car when most ppl are living paycheck to paycheck? like the lack of awareness of your own citizens in the comments is appalling. its no wonder trump is so popular with this crowd as much as I despise him.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    The older used vehicles they buy aren’t going to be banned.
    - nec4b 3y ago
      No. But demand for them will be much higher and the prices will adjust.
dgoldstein0 3y ago
I have a similar, though not quite the same, concern. I wonder if it would be better, instead of outright banning gas powered cars, to tax the emissions. If by some magic we could get 150mpg cars, that could be competitive with a relatively green grid. Or alternatively if mileage can't go up but it's possible to recapture some of the carbon before it leaves the tailpipe - that could also cut down the emissions, achieving the same climate goal. That said challenges with any such regime: - it's probably easier to tax the gas directly than the released emissions - it's definitely a problem to be raising the cost of living for lower-income Americans, who already don't have wiggle room in their budgets It's pretty likely that EVs will get cheaper over time, as production of them reaches better economies of scale which get optimized more with each new generation. How much cheaper of course is the big open question that remains to be seen, but some European countries have already seen mass adoption as the EVs get cheaper than ICE vehicles (Norway in particular, via a subsidy: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23939076/norway-electric-vehicle-cars-evs-tesla-oslo https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23939076/norway-electric-...). That said it's not yet the case that EVs can be made cheaper without policies shifting some of the cost. One partial answer may be extending cheap credit for buying EVs, as EVs should have cheaper maintenance in the long run and can have cheaper operating costs (though... that depends on the local price of energy, which we don't seem to be great about keeping under control) so it appears the bigger problem with EVs is upfront cost rather than total cost of ownership - a problem better credit could smooth over. Of course this then gets tied up with the problems of interest rates. <nervously glances at the Fed>