4 ms·
This may be a bit pedantic, the nbody problem is not chaotic, it is harder, having riddled basins. > A riddled basin implies a kind of unpredictability, since
by nyrikki 3y ago
This may be a bit pedantic, the nbody problem is not chaotic, it is harder, having riddled basins.
> A riddled basin implies a kind of unpredictability, since exact initial data are required in order to determine whether the state of a system lies in such a basin, and hence to determine the system’s qualitative behavior as time increases without bound. (Note this is different from “chaos,” where very precise initial data are required to determine finite-time behavior.) What is more, any computation that determines the long-term behavior of a system with riddled basins must use the complete exact initial data, which generally cannot be finitely expressed. Hence such computations are intuitively impossible, even if the data are somehow available.
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/13175/1/parker2003.pdf http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/13175/1/parker2003.pdf
The above post is a good 'example' of sensitivity to initial conditions, and riddled basins do have a positive Lyapunov exponent which is often the only criteria in popular mathematics related to chaos. But while a positive Lyapunov exponent is required for a system to be chaotic, it is not sufficient to prove a system is chaotic.
If you look at the topologically transitive requirement, where you work with the non-empty open sets U,V ⊂ X....riddled basins have no open sets...only closed sets.
With riddled basins, no matter how small your ε, it will always contain the boundary set.
If you have 3 exit basins you can run into the Wada property, which is also dependent on initial conditions but may have a zero or even negative Lyapunov exponent and is where 3 or more basins share the same boundary set...which is hard to visualize, non-chaotic, and nondeterministic.
Add in strange non-chaotic attractors, which may be easier or harder than strange chaotic attractors, and the story gets more complicated.
Sensitivity to initial conditions is simply not sufficient to show a system is chaotic in the formal meaning.
But the 3 body problem's issues do directly relate to decidability and thus computability.
- jovial_cavalier 3y agoThis is all very interesting stuff, and I thank you for a bunch of new keywords to google, but I’m not sure why you say it’s not chaotic. As far as I understand, extreme sensitivity to parameters/ICs is all that is required for a system to be chaotic.
- nyrikki 3y agoThat was once a popular belief, but we have moved past that historical concept. Here is a paper that is fairly accessible that may help. https://home.csulb.edu/~scrass/teaching/math456/articles/sensitive_dep_initial_cond.pdf https://home.csulb.edu/~scrass/teaching/math456/articles/sen... It becomes important when you have a need to make useful models, or to know when you probably won't be able to find a practical approximation. It is similar to the erroneous explanation of entropy as disorder, which is fundamentally false, yet popular. It has real implications, like frustrating the efforts to make ANNs that are closer to biological neurons: https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13921 https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.13921 Or even model realistic population dynamics. > It has been shown how simple ecosystem models can generate qualitative unpredictability above and beyond simple chaos or alternate basin structures. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241757794_Wada_basins_and_qualitative_unpredictability_in_ecological_models_A_graphical_interpretation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241757794_Wada_basi... Chaotic, riddled, and wada can be viewed as deterministic, practically indeterminate, and strongly indeterminate respectfully. If you want to hold on to the flawed popular understanding of the butterfly effect that is fine, you just won't be able to solve some problems that are open to approximation and please don't design any encryption algorithms. I think realizing it is simply a popular didactic half truth, is helpful.