3 ms·

This is super neat and I am very interested! I'm in a rush so I can't look to closely now but I have a few questions (and please forgive any stupid questions,

by zengid 3y ago

This is super neat and I am very interested! I'm in a rush so I can't look to closely now but I have a few questions (and please forgive any stupid questions, I'm not a graphics dev, just a hobbyist): What's the runtime like? Is there an event loop driving the rendering? (who calls the `render` on each frame? are there hooks into that? ) FFI story? Who owns the window pointer? I'm interested in audio plugins, and VSTs (etc) have a lot of constrains on what can be done around event loops and window management. JUCE is pretty much the de-facto solution there, but it's pretty old and feels crufty.

seanisom 3y ago
Great questions! The host app owns the event loop. I don't foresee that changing even once we re-architect around WebGPU (allowing the Wasm guest to control shaders), as the host app is responsible for "driving" the render tree, including passing in state (like a timer used for animations). The host app owns the window pointer, as renderlets are always designed to be hosted in an environment (either an app or a browser). Open to feedback on this, though. FFI is coming with the C API soon! I don't know much about audio but I see a ton of parallels - well-defined data flow across a set of components running real-time, arbitrary code. Simulations also come to mind.
- zengid 3y ago
  Thank you for the reply! I'm excited to watch as this project progresses, and I wish you the best of luck!
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
The limits on what audio plugins can do is not a function of the drawing toolkit, but the fact that they do not own the event loop if the GUI is run in-process with the host. And as long as they do, they will never own the evelop loop. In addition (and mostly related to this) the top level window they appear in is owned by the host, which also inherently limits the plugin's role in window management. If you want more, use the capability built into LV2, AU and VST3 for out-of-process GUIs for a plugin (LV2 has had this for more than a decade). CLAP has, I think, abandoned plans to support this based on lack of uptake elsewhere. I'd hardly call JUCE "pretty old", but then I'm a lot older than JUCE. And it's likely only crufty if you're more used to other styles of GUI toolkits; in terms of the "regular" desktop GUI toolkits, it's really bad at all.
- zengid 3y ago
  Hey Paul, thanks for sharing! Yes I think JUCE is great, It's very well made, but it drives you into a very narrow path of either using everything in the library, or leaving you to fend for yourself (which I admit may be a normal experience for C++ devs). For instance, the ValueTrees frequently used for UI state are very powerful, but they're not very type safe (or thread safe), and they feel clunky compared to more contemporary reactive state management patterns like signals. I'm sure folks who use ValueTrees are happy, but I don't see much advancement to that pattern being shared in the JUCE forums. If y'all have some better tricks over in the Ardour project I'd love to know! (BTW, I'm a fan of y'all's work. I really enjoyed reading some of the development resources, like the essay on handling time [0]). [0] https://ardour.org/timing.html https://ardour.org/timing.html
pdntspa 3y ago
> JUCE is pretty much the de-facto solution there, Is it though? iPlug nee wdl-ol nee iPlug2 seems pretty good too. JUCE stuff has a pretty distinct and slightly obnoxious look and feel that takes a fair bit of effort to strip out

by zengid 3y ago

seanisom 3y ago

Great questions! The host app owns the event loop. I don't foresee that changing even once we re-architect around WebGPU (allowing the Wasm guest to control shaders), as the host app is responsible for "driving" the render tree, including passing in state (like a timer used for animations). The host app owns the window pointer, as renderlets are always designed to be hosted in an environment (either an app or a browser). Open to feedback on this, though. FFI is coming with the C API soon! I don't know much about audio but I see a ton of parallels - well-defined data flow across a set of components running real-time, arbitrary code. Simulations also come to mind.

zengid 3y ago
Thank you for the reply! I'm excited to watch as this project progresses, and I wish you the best of luck!

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

The limits on what audio plugins can do is not a function of the drawing toolkit, but the fact that they do not own the event loop if the GUI is run in-process with the host. And as long as they do, they will never own the evelop loop. In addition (and mostly related to this) the top level window they appear in is owned by the host, which also inherently limits the plugin's role in window management. If you want more, use the capability built into LV2, AU and VST3 for out-of-process GUIs for a plugin (LV2 has had this for more than a decade). CLAP has, I think, abandoned plans to support this based on lack of uptake elsewhere. I'd hardly call JUCE "pretty old", but then I'm a lot older than JUCE. And it's likely only crufty if you're more used to other styles of GUI toolkits; in terms of the "regular" desktop GUI toolkits, it's really bad at all.

zengid 3y ago
Hey Paul, thanks for sharing! Yes I think JUCE is great, It's very well made, but it drives you into a very narrow path of either using everything in the library, or leaving you to fend for yourself (which I admit may be a normal experience for C++ devs). For instance, the ValueTrees frequently used for UI state are very powerful, but they're not very type safe (or thread safe), and they feel clunky compared to more contemporary reactive state management patterns like signals. I'm sure folks who use ValueTrees are happy, but I don't see much advancement to that pattern being shared in the JUCE forums. If y'all have some better tricks over in the Ardour project I'd love to know! (BTW, I'm a fan of y'all's work. I really enjoyed reading some of the development resources, like the essay on handling time [0]). [0] https://ardour.org/timing.html https://ardour.org/timing.html

pdntspa 3y ago

> JUCE is pretty much the de-facto solution there, Is it though? iPlug nee wdl-ol nee iPlug2 seems pretty good too. JUCE stuff has a pretty distinct and slightly obnoxious look and feel that takes a fair bit of effort to strip out