5 ms·

I think, the reason to do it is something noble which is difficult to express - its part empathy for people who don't have these riches who may or may not be on

by rehack 14y ago

I think, the reason to do it is something noble which is difficult to express - its part empathy for people who don't have these riches who may or may not be one's friends, and part a sense of continuity to self, that I am the same person, that I was yesterday - I still love the hard work, and would have done it irrespective of the outcome. So I don't completely agree, that its to keep your non-millionaire friends. I think, people's tastes change with time and social standing. For example, if you are on Facebook, tell me how difficult it is to really like a joke of a school friend, who has gone in a different direction in life and perhaps gets 15% of your salary.

mtrimpe 14y ago
As a Dutch person this kind of behavior is the norm. It actually pervades all of society. Dutch service (in restaurants) for example isn't bad because our waiters are rude. It's bad because we see the waiters as our equals and they're thus not as deferential as foreigners demand/expect. Very often they also pretty much are our equals, as they're largely well educated students who might very well end up earning more than you in 10 years. Even our royalty rides their bike to the restaurant in the rain... because that's what you're supposed to do. So perhaps SF is just more egalitarian ....
- adventureful 14y ago
  That's an interesting view, but it's strange to me. Where I'm from (Maryland), if you don't treat a waiter with respect, you won't get served by the restaurant. It's an offense that will get you tossed out and banned. On the other hand, waiters have a job to perform and they're being paid to do so by the customer. If they want tipped better than average, they perform better than average. It's really simple.
- mseebach 14y ago
  I think what you're describing is the same thing as in Denmark. There's a sort of cargo cult egalitarianism which completely misses the point that one person can be paid to service another person without them being unequal (on a human level). I've heard people talk about your supposed obligation to engage in a conversation with a taxi driver, or it being impolite to talk on your mobile phone in a taxi. It's bizarre and completely counter productive in societies as dependant on service industries as ours.
  - mtrimpe 14y ago
    Are you Danish by origin? I am well aware that this perspective is completely incomprehensible to Americans, but for us it's just a value embedded very deeply into the fabric of our culture. I highly doubt that it's counter productive though, as I doubt that society is harmed by expecting you to treat your taxi driver like a fellow human being of equal value, nor that it's bad to have the same expectations of your waiter as you have of your neighborhood college going kid who's just a bit too full of himself. And yes; we are aware we're chasing away tourists with our service. We're like the French in that respect, as most of us wouldn't mind a little less tourists in town. :)
    - mseebach 14y ago
      Yes, I'm Danish. My point is that I can treat a taxi driver friendly, respectfully and as a fellow human being without treating him like a friend who's doing me a favour. I'm not worried about tourists, they are plenty scared by the cost of living already, I'm worried about a culture where you don't say "no, I need someone else to do this task for me, my time is better spend on something else". When you're uncomfortable getting in a taxi, you're not going to hire a secretary for your office and then your productivity suffers.
- randallsquared 14y ago
  Dutch service (in restaurants) for example isn't bad because our waiters are rude. It's bad because we see the waiters pretty much as our equals and they're not as deferential as foreigners demand/expect. I don't think that's why service is bad. Believing that your customers are your equal doesn't seem to have anything to do with performing your job well, nor does good food service imply being deferential.
- com 14y ago
  Dutch service is considered bad by some foreigners (including me at times) primarily because of incompetence and laziness, not a lack of deference. In fact, I beleive that some of the best service in the world exists in the Netherlands, because it really comes from the heart of your server. Unfortunately, very hard to find amongst the staff who are too busy chatting each other up (or customers for that matter: I remember waiting 45 minutes for a menu so that I could order, I began waving at a member of the staff, and got a shy smile and a telephone number, sheesh!)
- wpietri 14y ago
  As a San Francisco resident, there is definitely a streak of egalitarianism here. Your comment about waiters makes me think of the local institution Zeitgeist: http://www.yelp.com/biz/zeitgeist-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/zeitgeist-san-francisco From the reviews you can see the split in reaction: Some people think the staff are incredibly rude. Others, like me, love the place. As somebody who thinks of the staff as hardworking people trying to get a difficult job done, I've never had a problem with them. But they definitely aren't servile, and they won't take an ounce of crap from anybody. If I had to sum up the culture, I'd say that nobody minds that you have money, and nobody minds if you enjoy yourself. But showy consumption is frowned upon, and acting like you're better than others because you have money is a definite faux pas.

by rehack 14y ago

mtrimpe 14y ago

As a Dutch person this kind of behavior is the norm. It actually pervades all of society. Dutch service (in restaurants) for example isn't bad because our waiters are rude. It's bad because we see the waiters as our equals and they're thus not as deferential as foreigners demand/expect. Very often they also pretty much are our equals, as they're largely well educated students who might very well end up earning more than you in 10 years. Even our royalty rides their bike to the restaurant in the rain... because that's what you're supposed to do. So perhaps SF is just more egalitarian ....

adventureful 14y ago
That's an interesting view, but it's strange to me. Where I'm from (Maryland), if you don't treat a waiter with respect, you won't get served by the restaurant. It's an offense that will get you tossed out and banned. On the other hand, waiters have a job to perform and they're being paid to do so by the customer. If they want tipped better than average, they perform better than average. It's really simple.
mseebach 14y ago
I think what you're describing is the same thing as in Denmark. There's a sort of cargo cult egalitarianism which completely misses the point that one person can be paid to service another person without them being unequal (on a human level). I've heard people talk about your supposed obligation to engage in a conversation with a taxi driver, or it being impolite to talk on your mobile phone in a taxi. It's bizarre and completely counter productive in societies as dependant on service industries as ours.
- mtrimpe 14y ago
  Are you Danish by origin? I am well aware that this perspective is completely incomprehensible to Americans, but for us it's just a value embedded very deeply into the fabric of our culture. I highly doubt that it's counter productive though, as I doubt that society is harmed by expecting you to treat your taxi driver like a fellow human being of equal value, nor that it's bad to have the same expectations of your waiter as you have of your neighborhood college going kid who's just a bit too full of himself. And yes; we are aware we're chasing away tourists with our service. We're like the French in that respect, as most of us wouldn't mind a little less tourists in town. :)
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Yes, I'm Danish. My point is that I can treat a taxi driver friendly, respectfully and as a fellow human being without treating him like a friend who's doing me a favour. I'm not worried about tourists, they are plenty scared by the cost of living already, I'm worried about a culture where you don't say "no, I need someone else to do this task for me, my time is better spend on something else". When you're uncomfortable getting in a taxi, you're not going to hire a secretary for your office and then your productivity suffers.
randallsquared 14y ago
Dutch service (in restaurants) for example isn't bad because our waiters are rude. It's bad because we see the waiters pretty much as our equals and they're not as deferential as foreigners demand/expect. I don't think that's why service is bad. Believing that your customers are your equal doesn't seem to have anything to do with performing your job well, nor does good food service imply being deferential.
com 14y ago
Dutch service is considered bad by some foreigners (including me at times) primarily because of incompetence and laziness, not a lack of deference. In fact, I beleive that some of the best service in the world exists in the Netherlands, because it really comes from the heart of your server. Unfortunately, very hard to find amongst the staff who are too busy chatting each other up (or customers for that matter: I remember waiting 45 minutes for a menu so that I could order, I began waving at a member of the staff, and got a shy smile and a telephone number, sheesh!)
wpietri 14y ago
As a San Francisco resident, there is definitely a streak of egalitarianism here. Your comment about waiters makes me think of the local institution Zeitgeist: http://www.yelp.com/biz/zeitgeist-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/biz/zeitgeist-san-francisco From the reviews you can see the split in reaction: Some people think the staff are incredibly rude. Others, like me, love the place. As somebody who thinks of the staff as hardworking people trying to get a difficult job done, I've never had a problem with them. But they definitely aren't servile, and they won't take an ounce of crap from anybody. If I had to sum up the culture, I'd say that nobody minds that you have money, and nobody minds if you enjoy yourself. But showy consumption is frowned upon, and acting like you're better than others because you have money is a definite faux pas.